Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby jerseyhoya » Sat Feb 25, 2012 13:56:44

td11 wrote:
The Nightman Cometh wrote:Yeah, because that is the point td is making.


Thanks, mcgraw, yeah i shouldn't have used "was" in my sentence. Just wanted to point out how different the game is post-CU.

The game is different, but there are more similarities than differences with the common theme being rich people who want to give a lot of money to affect their preferred political outcome have a means to do so. In the 1990s and 2000 we heard about how evil soft money was - unlimited donations to the national party that could be spent on party building and GOTV activities. In the 2000 cycle Democrats raised $243 million in soft money and Republicans raised $244 million, and then McCain Feingold came along and got all the big money out of party politics...thank god, the republic was safe.

Then 2004 rolls along and we get the major 501c4s and 527s popping up. The 527s spent almost $440 million in total, with the majority coming from the left. America Coming Together and Media Fund and MoveOn combined to spend over $150 million, with a lot of the money coming in big chunks (over $20 million each from George Soros and Peter Lewis most famously). Then on the right you had the infamous Swift Boat Vets for Truth folks who only spent $20 million but had a pretty outsized effect on the election. The 501c4 spending is harder to pin down because their donors do not have to be identified to the FEC, which made them a more popular vehicle in 2008 for rich people who wanted to give but not have to answer questions. Crossroads GPS, which was an important backer of GOP candidates in the 2010 midterms, was a 501c4.

So now we have SuperPACs, the newest way for rich people to give as much as they want/greatest threat to American democracy ever (at least since last election). Unlike 501c4s, they don't have to worry about the % of spending going to expressly advocating the election or defeat of candidates due to tax laws, which makes them more efficient in their spending. And, because of that, a lot of the legal ambiguity/potential tax liability is gone. So those two factors I think has led to an increase in big dollar people being willing to give to them. Unlike the 501c4s donors are identified in filings so that's better. I think calls for the disclosure window to be shortened (48 hours maybe) for donations over a certain amount (FEC limit for candidates maybe) would help things.

You put up a dam to keep money out of politics in one place, and it'll find its way around it because people care about the outcome and the first amendment means people are allowed to talk when they want to talk.

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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby Monkeyboy » Sat Feb 25, 2012 15:05:04

Arguing that it isn't as bad or at least not any worse than the last system doesn't really make me believe that it's not bad for democracy. So much money being infused into our political process by so few people virtually guarantees that the needs of the many will be outweighed by the needs of the few. Let's no get bogged down in the intricacies of the law when it's just wrong on its face.
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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby Swiggers » Sat Feb 25, 2012 16:22:18

jerseyhoya wrote:You put up a dam to keep money out of politics in one place, and it'll find its way around it because people care about the outcome and the first amendment means people are allowed to talk when they want to talk.


My point all along has been that the root of all this craziness is Buckley v. Valeo (1976), which decreed that political donations = free speech. If we really want to fix the problem, we would need a constitutional amendment that gets rid of that decision. And that won't happen because Congressional incumbents like the current system just fine.
jerseyhoya wrote:I think the reason you get yelled at is you appear to hate listening to sports talk radio, but regularly listen to sports talk radio, and then frequently post about how bad listening to sports talk radio is after you were once again listening to it.

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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby TenuredVulture » Sat Feb 25, 2012 17:16:58

Right--the only approach that will hold up is to get a court that is willing to overturn Buckley v. Valeo and its confusion between money and speech.
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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby Swiggers » Sat Feb 25, 2012 17:18:24

TenuredVulture wrote:Right--the only approach that will hold up is to get a court that is willing to overturn Buckley v. Valeo and its confusion between money and speech.


Certainly won't happen with the current SC -- if they had a problem with Buckley v. Valeo, they would not have ruled on Citizens United the way they did.
jerseyhoya wrote:I think the reason you get yelled at is you appear to hate listening to sports talk radio, but regularly listen to sports talk radio, and then frequently post about how bad listening to sports talk radio is after you were once again listening to it.

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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby allentown » Sat Feb 25, 2012 20:16:53

Werthless wrote:
The Nightman Cometh wrote:I know jh likes Super Pacs because they will give Republicans an advantage in November, but it really is embarassing.

My impression is that spending in support of Obama will be higher than Republican spending in the general, even with Super PACs. Is that a bad guess?

Depends what you count. Primary plus general election, I think Reps will spend more on presidential race than Dems, counting candidate, party, PACs, everything.
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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby jeff2sf » Sat Feb 25, 2012 20:54:00

That's a silly way to count, allentown.
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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby TenuredVulture » Sat Feb 25, 2012 21:06:08

Swiggers wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:Right--the only approach that will hold up is to get a court that is willing to overturn Buckley v. Valeo and its confusion between money and speech.


Certainly won't happen with the current SC -- if they had a problem with Buckley v. Valeo, they would not have ruled on Citizens United the way they did.


Oh, it will be tough--the buckley valeo court was much more liberal than the current court.
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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby Swiggers » Sat Feb 25, 2012 23:40:32

I know, that's what's so amazing. I suspect there were two things at play: the 1976 court were from the "all censorship is bad" wing of liberalism, and that they had no idea that the amount of money involved would get so insane.
jerseyhoya wrote:I think the reason you get yelled at is you appear to hate listening to sports talk radio, but regularly listen to sports talk radio, and then frequently post about how bad listening to sports talk radio is after you were once again listening to it.

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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Feb 26, 2012 00:18:15

I don't think so. By 1976, it was pretty clear that money was problem. Remember, the decision overturned campaign finance reforms that were passed in response to Nixon's campaign fundraising.
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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby Monkeyboy » Sun Feb 26, 2012 06:20:24

jeff2sf wrote:That's a silly way to count, allentown.



of course, only counting it from after the primaries discounts any effect the primary money may have on the election. So not counting it would be silly too. I'm now sure what the best way would be, but I don't like either way.
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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby dajafi » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:20:23

Santorum on the George Snuffalopagus show. Someone needs to tell him that vicious and stupid is no way to go through life.

The idea that Obama wants everyone to have postsecondary education so they can be indoctrinated into liberalism--as opposed to the empirically demonstrated reality that educational attainment is an enormous economic input--should be disqualifying for its sheer illogic and imbecility.

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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby phdave » Sun Feb 26, 2012 13:07:53

dajafi wrote:Santorum on the George Snuffalopagus show. Someone needs to tell him that vicious and stupid is no way to go through life.

The idea that Obama wants everyone to have postsecondary education so they can be indoctrinated into liberalism--as opposed to the empirically demonstrated reality that educational attainment is an enormous economic input--should be disqualifying for its sheer illogic and imbecility.


Has anyone asked him if all of his children are going to go to college?

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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby pacino » Sun Feb 26, 2012 13:17:32

Image
thephan wrote:pacino's posting is one of the more important things revealed in weeks.

Calvinball wrote:Pacino was right.

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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby Wolfgang622 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 13:32:07

dajafi wrote:Santorum on the George Snuffalopagus show. Someone needs to tell him that vicious and stupid is no way to go through life.

The idea that Obama wants everyone to have postsecondary education so they can be indoctrinated into liberalism--as opposed to the empirically demonstrated reality that educational attainment is an enormous economic input--should be disqualifying for its sheer illogic and imbecility.


Santorum was in rare form this morning. I think it was TV that said that he was beginning to suspect that somebody's campaign was performance art (Santorum?).... Well, Rick's performance has really pushed the envelope in that regard in recent days.
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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Feb 26, 2012 13:36:23

I'm at least a little pleased that Santorum's descent into batshit crazy isn't helping him. He's lost his lead in Michigan, and his national lead seems to have narrowed a bit. But he still has a lead. And I don't think I made a performance art statement.
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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby dajafi » Sun Feb 26, 2012 13:37:39

mozartpc27 wrote:
dajafi wrote:Santorum on the George Snuffalopagus show. Someone needs to tell him that vicious and stupid is no way to go through life.

The idea that Obama wants everyone to have postsecondary education so they can be indoctrinated into liberalism--as opposed to the empirically demonstrated reality that educational attainment is an enormous economic input--should be disqualifying for its sheer illogic and imbecility.


Santorum was in rare form this morning. I think it was TV that said that he was beginning to suspect that somebody's campaign was performance art (Santorum?).... Well, Rick's performance has really pushed the envelope in that regard in recent days.


That might have been me: I couldn't shake the suspicion that Herman Cain's campaign was a huge, brilliant joke. I'm still not totally certain it wasn't.

I turned it on in the middle of him arguing that we shouldn't have apologized for the inadvertent burning of Korans. I was hoping Stephanopoulos would ask him one of two questions: were the roles reversed and a foreign power were on our soil burning Bibles, should they apologize? or were it the advice of military leaders that an apology would save the lives of American soldiers, would it then make sense to apologize?

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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby Barry Jive » Sun Feb 26, 2012 13:53:29

pacino wrote:Image


pretty sweet shot they took there
no offense but you are everything that's wrong with America

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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Feb 26, 2012 13:53:56

dajafi wrote:
mozartpc27 wrote:
dajafi wrote:Santorum on the George Snuffalopagus show. Someone needs to tell him that vicious and stupid is no way to go through life.

The idea that Obama wants everyone to have postsecondary education so they can be indoctrinated into liberalism--as opposed to the empirically demonstrated reality that educational attainment is an enormous economic input--should be disqualifying for its sheer illogic and imbecility.


Santorum was in rare form this morning. I think it was TV that said that he was beginning to suspect that somebody's campaign was performance art (Santorum?).... Well, Rick's performance has really pushed the envelope in that regard in recent days.


That might have been me: I couldn't shake the suspicion that Herman Cain's campaign was a huge, brilliant joke. I'm still not totally certain it wasn't.

I turned it on in the middle of him arguing that we shouldn't have apologized for the inadvertent burning of Korans. I was hoping Stephanopoulos would ask him one of two questions: were the roles reversed and a foreign power were on our soil burning Bibles, should they apologize? or were it the advice of military leaders that an apology would save the lives of American soldiers, would it then make sense to apologize?


This is why candidate appearances are little more than free campaign advertisements--there's never a follow up. I suspect it's because doing so would mean you'd lose access. One consequence of having a lot of media outlets is that politicians have all the leverage.
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Re: Politics: Spreading Santorum All Over This Great Nation

Postby phdave » Sun Feb 26, 2012 15:54:45

Barry Jive wrote:
pacino wrote:Image


pretty sweet shot they took there


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