Shore wrote:pacino wrote:Shore wrote:pacino wrote:and I disagree with your dissenting view. Have a stellar day.
But you're wrong. Enjoy the rest of your afternoon.
it must be so great to be right all the time.
It's awesome.
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The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by Monkeyboy » Tue Sep 15, 2015 20:24:15
Agnostic dyslexic insomniacs lay awake all night wondering if there is a Dog.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by Shore » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:10:05
Werthless wrote:Shore wrote:pacino wrote:and I disagree with your dissenting view. Have a stellar day.
But you're wrong. Enjoy the rest of your afternoon.
Does it make sense to stock the team in 2016 with the best team possible? I'm not so sure. We won't contend until 2017 at earliest, and it's not clear that having French on the team in 2016 hurts our ability to win in 2017.
No one is arguing he is a good baseball player.
Some people are arguing that he's a worthwhile baseball player.
Either way, the 64 starts are the problem. We (at the time) had Ruf and Revere and Asche and Brown and Herrera at LEAST that we needed to find out about as everyday players, because there was a CHANCE that they would be players we'd invest in, in the long term. When Frenchy starts, we learn nothing. Once it's established that your team blows, and is building for a different season, playing guys in their 30s who suck and have no history with the franchise (and some kind of karmic investment by the fanbase) is a mortal sin.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by Shore » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:10:51
ReadingPhilly wrote:Or maybe sometimes they have a better feel for what someone provides outside of the stat line.
Examples of which are....
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by 1 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:16:23
OMG LOL
Fine. You wanna act like you're two? I'll act like I'm one.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by ReadingPhilly » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:20:24
Shore wrote:ReadingPhilly wrote:Or maybe sometimes they have a better feel for what someone provides outside of the stat line.
Examples of which are....
Perhaps francouer had a reputation with helping young players and the fo felt that would be beneficial to the team this season. I assume scenarios like this happen fairly often.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by smitty » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:21:54
1 wrote:OMG LOL
No kidding. GGSA.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by CalvinBall » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:29:44
If it's not a column on fan graphs it's not a thing.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by smitty » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:30:09
ReadingPhilly wrote:Shore wrote:ReadingPhilly wrote:Or maybe sometimes they have a better feel for what someone provides outside of the stat line.
Examples of which are....
Perhaps francouer had a reputation with helping young players and the fo felt that would be beneficial to the team this season. I assume scenarios like this happen fairly often.
I think so. Intangibles make computers asplode. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. Even a lot of computer guys have come around to this view. I think Frenchy is good for the team -- mostly because he's hitting pretty well and has been pretty clutchy. But also his positive attitude. He's good for morale. That's important for a team as young as the Phils are now. Plus, he didn't cost much dough.
If he moves on next season I won't mind. He will probably crater again. But I think he's been valuable this season for many reasons.
Teams lie, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad. They do it to get an advantage while they look at the trade market or just because they can
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by BigEd76 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:44:13
Phils lose, Barves win
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by Shore » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:45:03
ReadingPhilly wrote:Shore wrote:ReadingPhilly wrote:Or maybe sometimes they have a better feel for what someone provides outside of the stat line.
Examples of which are....
Perhaps francouer had a reputation with helping young players and the fo felt that would be beneficial to the team this season. I assume scenarios like this happen fairly often.
If he has that reputation, why has he been in 6 organizations in the last 6 seasons? Wouldn't the people who gave him that rep want him around?
And, if he's good with young guys (/PiP), then why does he have to start half the games, as he was doing most of the year?
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by Shore » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:48:34
CalvinBall wrote:If it's not a column on fan graphs it's not a thing.
Basically true. But, I'm fine with the idea that something intangible contributes to the things that are in the columns at fangraphs. But, if being a nice guy that helps younger players doesn't show up in the younger players' numbers, then it's bullshit.
Further complicating things is that Francoeur has the worst approach ever at the plate. If he's dropping that knowledge on Aaron Altherr, it's a bad thing, not a good one.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by smitty » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:55:57
He's not a hitting instructor. All the guys you're worried about have plenty of ABs. Frenchy is slugging .447 and has contributed mightily to a few wins which helps the youngsters. Herrera was a rule V pick. He's having a nice season. Altherrr is doing quite well as is Sweeney. Franco was rocking before he got hurt.
So. No bullshit I guess.
So. No bullshit I guess.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by ReadingPhilly » Tue Sep 15, 2015 22:58:34
Shore wrote:ReadingPhilly wrote:Shore wrote:ReadingPhilly wrote:Or maybe sometimes they have a better feel for what someone provides outside of the stat line.
Examples of which are....
Perhaps francouer had a reputation with helping young players and the fo felt that would be beneficial to the team this season. I assume scenarios like this happen fairly often.
If he has that reputation, why has he been in 6 organizations in the last 6 seasons? Wouldn't the people who gave him that rep want him around?
And, if he's good with young guys (/PiP), then why does he have to start half the games, as he was doing most of the year?
Maybe he wanted a shot somewhere else. Maybe they didn't feel like he was needed anymore. Maybe they wanted to keep him but the numbers didn't work out.
Maybe he was starting because he was actually playing well and the phillies had a pretty bad team.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by MoBettle » Tue Sep 15, 2015 23:24:45
The problem with Francouer is that the Phillies through their ineptitude were devoid of prospects ready for Major League RF playing time, not that he was taking ABs away from a 29 year old Darin Ruf or 28 year old Domonic Brown.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by Shore » Tue Sep 15, 2015 23:39:04
ReadingPhilly wrote:Maybe he wanted a shot somewhere else. Maybe they didn't feel like he was needed anymore. Maybe they wanted to keep him but the numbers didn't work out.
Maybe he was starting because he was actually playing well and the phillies had a pretty bad team.
Maybe he's terrible, and the other 5 cities in 5 years figured that out. It's at least as plausible as the possible reputation and the tri-maybes.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by smitty » Tue Sep 15, 2015 23:42:15
Agreed Mo. With luck, the Phils will have three solid starters and two above average extra guys soon. Frenchy had two rockin seasons in the bigs in 2009 and 2011. He followed those seasons by going in the crapper again. He's been a good addition this season but look for the classic regression next year.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by ReadingPhilly » Tue Sep 15, 2015 23:45:25
Shore wrote:ReadingPhilly wrote:Maybe he wanted a shot somewhere else. Maybe they didn't feel like he was needed anymore. Maybe they wanted to keep him but the numbers didn't work out.
Maybe he was starting because he was actually playing well and the phillies had a pretty bad team.
Maybe he's terrible, and the other 5 cities in 5 years figured that out. It's at least as plausible as the possible reputation and the tri-maybes.
Yes maybe they felt what he added did not make up for his lack of skill and let him leave. So the phillies got the best of both situations.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by MoBettle » Wed Sep 16, 2015 00:43:13
Shore wrote:ReadingPhilly wrote:Maybe he wanted a shot somewhere else. Maybe they didn't feel like he was needed anymore. Maybe they wanted to keep him but the numbers didn't work out.
Maybe he was starting because he was actually playing well and the phillies had a pretty bad team.
Maybe he's terrible, and the other 5 cities in 5 years figured that out. It's at least as plausible as the possible reputation and the tri-maybes.
The other teams decided they had better alternatives. The Phillies decided they didn't, and then he managed to put a decent year together so he stuck around. Given that the Phillies are the worst team in baseball and specifically Right Field has been a disaster zone for them the last few years I could see how both the other teams and the Phillies could be right in their assessments of the situations.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by smitty » Wed Sep 16, 2015 00:54:41
MoBettle wrote:Shore wrote:ReadingPhilly wrote:Maybe he wanted a shot somewhere else. Maybe they didn't feel like he was needed anymore. Maybe they wanted to keep him but the numbers didn't work out.
Maybe he was starting because he was actually playing well and the phillies had a pretty bad team.
Maybe he's terrible, and the other 5 cities in 5 years figured that out. It's at least as plausible as the possible reputation and the tri-maybes.
The other teams decided they had better alternatives. The Phillies decided they didn't, and then he managed to put a decent year together so he stuck around. Given that the Phillies are the worst team in baseball and specifically Right Field has been a disaster zone for them the last few years I could see how both the other teams and the Phillies could be right in their assessments of the situations.
Yup. Also, it didn't take too long for them to dump Grady Sizemore who actually sucked.
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Re: The future is Nola-nger so far away: Phillies thoughts
by gr » Wed Sep 16, 2015 01:18:23
guys lets not lose sight of the original question, which was should you sign frenchie again for next year. and the answer to that should be an emphatic 'no'.
the only reason for a profoundly bad team to sign guys like this is to turn them into assets at the trade deadline. and the only reason you consider this strategy is because you have no one worth plugging in to those spaces to develop. the team is in a much better position than it was 12 months in ago in that regard, and we already saw that despite having a renaissance year (by his standards), frenchie wasn't worth anything at the deadline, not even a C level prospect. this is probably because he's hasn't been good for while, he's ill-suited to pinch hitting because he's overagressive, etc, etc.
next year, at best, he should be get a non-roster invite to camp precisely because you know he's going to be good around the clubhouse. but the club has shed payroll and has stated that they will spend to get better. frenchie's value lies in being a cheap stopgap, which is of no value if there are legit prospects who can break camp with the team, or better free agents the team can afford.
i love frenchie, partially for some minor heroics, more for inadvertently exposing how inept the mgr and pitching coach were/are thru his 2 glorious IP. but there's no legit reason to bring him back on a guaranteed deal.
the only reason for a profoundly bad team to sign guys like this is to turn them into assets at the trade deadline. and the only reason you consider this strategy is because you have no one worth plugging in to those spaces to develop. the team is in a much better position than it was 12 months in ago in that regard, and we already saw that despite having a renaissance year (by his standards), frenchie wasn't worth anything at the deadline, not even a C level prospect. this is probably because he's hasn't been good for while, he's ill-suited to pinch hitting because he's overagressive, etc, etc.
next year, at best, he should be get a non-roster invite to camp precisely because you know he's going to be good around the clubhouse. but the club has shed payroll and has stated that they will spend to get better. frenchie's value lies in being a cheap stopgap, which is of no value if there are legit prospects who can break camp with the team, or better free agents the team can afford.
i love frenchie, partially for some minor heroics, more for inadvertently exposing how inept the mgr and pitching coach were/are thru his 2 glorious IP. but there's no legit reason to bring him back on a guaranteed deal.
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