Wizlah wrote:That's why I'm worried - it feels a bit catch 22. We have to be sure that the mets don't get him, but equally, we could lose everything for a 3 month rental, and then get no compensation in draft picks.

I think the Phils would offer him arbitration. Manny wants a multi-year deal badly and somebody (esp. in the AL) would give him one to DH.

Shore wrote:

mozartpc27 wrote:I'm inclined to agree with the DO NOT WANT sentiment with Manny. Pay his salary for another two months and throw in a marginal prospect, fine. But the problem here is that we didn't get C.C. or Rich Harden. Getting Manny Ramirez does nothing to fix that.

Of course it does. 12-10 wins are as legitimate as 4-2 wins.

They're more variable, of course, but if you cannot (or do not) improve pitching, improving offense is a viable alternative. With this offense, it's kind of difficult, but Manny does actually significantly improve us.

We have 57 games to go; so far, we score 5 per game, and allow 4.4. If we keep that up, we should go 32-25.

If, by adding Harden, who only pitches 1 out of 5 games, we could lower our team ERA by .4 runs, to 4.0, we could expect to go 35-22.

Instead, by adding Manny, who bats every day instead of Jenkins, we could add .5 runs, to 5.5, but keep the same 4.4 pitching, we could expect to go the same 35-22 as adding Harden.

35-22 gets us to 91-71.

And I'd like to see the NL team we'll see that has a solution for Utley/Manny/Howard/Burrell.

Good counterpoints. I just don't know if Manny is really worth half a run... but he is surely worth a whole headache to those who have to work with him.

I know, that's not really a metric you want to use to make baseball decisions. And, hell, if the Phillies DO get Manny, it will have this going for it: it would easily be the most exciting trade they've made at the deadline in any kind of recent memory, perhaps ever. If they wnated to make sure they sold out the few remaining games they haven't sold out, this would be a great way to do it. And it would be fun.

It's just that, at this point, it's a bigger risk than it used to be (the idea of acquiring Ramirez). The chances of resulting in the ultimate prize seem rather dim to me, so to giv up anything of real long term value would be a questionable strategy in my mind. That said, I think I'm more willing than some here to part with Marson. Jaramillo and Coste, I can live with that if there is production elsewhere throughout the lineup.

JFLNYC wrote:

phatj wrote:Who would he replace? He's been pretty bad against LHP this year, so he might be an offensive downgrade from Werth, and he's for damn sure worse as a fielder.

I think that's what we call a small sample size (79 PA). Lifetime he's got a 1.076 OPS vs. LHP, including 1.095 last year.

Fair point. But Werth hits lefties pretty well (better this year than in his career, but still a .900 OPS) and is a decent fielder and baserunner. I think you could make a case that Manny is at best a marginal upgrade over Werth against LHP.

Whatever, it's the upgrade over Jenkins that's important, and that's much bigger.

Shore wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:I have a hard time seeing a team that complains about the attitude of a Jimmy Rollins going out of their way for a Manny Ramirez.

Ah, but Charlie has a history with Ramirez. A good one.

I just don't see the powers that be going for Ramirez. Making a deal for a player like that would be very un-Phillie like.

How is it that Manny never finished higher than 3rd in MVP voting

Sportswriters Being Sportswriters

I'd be more interested in seeing if we could pry Milton Bradley away from Texas. He's cheaper moneywise, and the Rangers are 10.5 games out in the West (and 6.5 out in the WC, with the Yankees and Red Sox in front of them). He's played right field as recently as last year, and his contract expires at the end of the year and there'd be no question about offering him arbitration, as he has no option years but IS going to get a better contract from somebody. I wouldn't even mind if it were the Phillies, frankly, so long as it wasn't too long. He's 30.

mozartpc27 wrote:I'd be more interested in seeing if we could pry Milton Bradley away from Texas. He's cheaper moneywise, and the Rangers are 10.5 games out in the West (and 6.5 out in the WC, with the Yankees and Red Sox in front of them). He's played right field as recently as last year, and his contract expires at the end of the year and there'd be no question about offering him arbitration, as he has no option years but IS going to get a better contract from somebody. I wouldn't even mind if it were the Phillies, frankly, so long as it wasn't too long. He's 30.

I love Milton, but you have to figure the only reason he hasn't gotten hurt this year is because he doesn't have to play the outfield.

Woody will be a Phillie before Milton Bradley.

mozartpc27 wrote:I'd be more interested in seeing if we could pry Milton Bradley away from Texas. He's cheaper moneywise, and the Rangers are 10.5 games out in the West (and 6.5 out in the WC, with the Yankees and Red Sox in front of them). He's played right field as recently as last year, and his contract expires at the end of the year and there'd be no question about offering him arbitration, as he has no option years but IS going to get a better contract from somebody. I wouldn't even mind if it were the Phillies, frankly, so long as it wasn't too long. He's 30.

I'd rather we pry Chris Davis away from Texas.

traderdave wrote:

mozartpc27 wrote:I'd be more interested in seeing if we could pry Milton Bradley away from Texas. He's cheaper moneywise, and the Rangers are 10.5 games out in the West (and 6.5 out in the WC, with the Yankees and Red Sox in front of them). He's played right field as recently as last year, and his contract expires at the end of the year and there'd be no question about offering him arbitration, as he has no option years but IS going to get a better contract from somebody. I wouldn't even mind if it were the Phillies, frankly, so long as it wasn't too long. He's 30.

I'd rather we pry Chris Davis away from Texas.

good luck trading for a guy with 40 HR power and a month of service time.

The Phillies? Yes, Ramirez goes way back with manager Charlie Manuel, but perhaps no general manager emphasizes makeup more than Pat Gillick, who plans to retire at the end of the season.

To make the deal work financially, the Phillies probably would need to include outfielder Geoff Jenkins, who is signed through next season. Ramirez — ahem — probably would need to play right field. And the Red Sox almost certainly would want the Phils? Class AA catcher, Lou Marson, who has been off-limits in other deals. Then again, imagine Manny on a salary drive at hitter-friendly Citizens Bank Park.

Ken

JFLNYC wrote:

The Phillies? Yes, Ramirez goes way back with manager Charlie Manuel, but perhaps no general manager emphasizes makeup more than Pat Gillick, who plans to retire at the end of the season.

To make the deal work financially, the Phillies probably would need to include outfielder Geoff Jenkins, who is signed through next season. Ramirez — ahem — probably would need to play right field. And the Red Sox almost certainly would want the Phils? Class AA catcher, Lou Marson, who has been off-limits in other deals. Then again, imagine Manny on a salary drive at hitter-friendly Citizens Bank Park.

Ken

Well there's no way I'm giving up Jenkins in a deal for Ramirez. That would end the conversation right there.

I would flip the fuck out if we could get rid of Jenks and get Manny in one felled swoop.

I love Lou Marson.

But if we can launder Jenkies off the books and add ManRam to the lineup, I think I might ponder that. Clearly Arbuckle thinks Marson sucks, and when the power struggle begins next year with Ruben, Marson will be buried in the minors anyway.

The Phils stole the idea from me!

JFLNYC wrote:The Sox have intimated they'd pay Manny's ~$6MM salary for the rest of the year in order to get prospects included. So, if the Phils were willing to take on Manny's salary, it's not too great a stretch to think the Phils would have some leverage to get them to take Eaton's contract. If not Eaton, then maybe Jenkins. I don't get the feeling money is the big issue for the Sox. They seem to want most to get some talent back for Manny and are willing to take something of a financial hit to do it.

That said, I'd do everything I could not to include Marson. Give them Werth (you'll need Vic to run balls down between Pat and Manny), Happ, Carrasco and insist they take either Eaton or Jenkins. That might not be enough but, if it isn't, then I'd pass. It's not exactly a seller's market for the Sox.

Ramirez is awesome but I'd much rather trade our untouchable prospects for an elite starting pitcher. What's the status on Roy Halladay's availability?

Jenkins is a deal breaker. Sorry.

Trent Steele wrote:Jenkins is a deal breaker. Sorry.

What if the Eagles pledged to sign Brett Favre? Would that be something that might interest you?