I love what Iguchi has contributed so far. He's been a godsend. But let's be rational here. Iguchi has a career OPS+ of 100 -- slightly above Helms' 98 and Dobbs' 91 (although Dobbs is 109 this year). Tad is the very definition of an average hitter and, at best, an unknown at 3B. If he played there regularly he might be a marginal improvement over Helms and Dobbs offensively. It's very likely he'd be worse defensively than Nunez. It's anybody's guess right now, but he'd likely be no better than Helms/Dobbs defensively.

The point is that asking him to do what he's doing now -- filling in more than capably for Utley -- is setting him up for success. If you move him to 3B he's still going to be an average hitter and a question mark on defense. IOW, you're setting him up for failure, or mediocrity, at best.

On WIP this morning they were saying Gillick's quote about Iguchi playing third was that it was a "remote-remote chance"

JFLNYC wrote: It's anybody's guess right now, but he'd likely be no better than Helms/Dobbs defensively.

Are you serious with this? Just look at his reaction time and how good his hands were in the 9th last night. You can't tell me Dobbs or Helms would have made those plays. If you can field a ball, you can field a ball. Reaction times may be different, but you don't all of a sudden forget how to catch a ball if you move to third base

Also Dobbs and Helms have close career OPS+, yes
but as part time players

Helms started out with more playing time this year and was exposed
Iguchi has been average for his career but over two full seasons as a starter

Woody wrote:

JFLNYC wrote: It's anybody's guess right now, but he'd likely be no better than Helms/Dobbs defensively.

Are you serious with this? Just look at his reaction time and how good his hands were in the 9th last night. You can't tell me Dobbs or Helms would have made those plays. If you can field a ball, you can field a ball. Reaction times may be different, but you don't all of a sudden forget how to catch a ball if you move to third base

Are you serious? Not everyone who can play 2B can play 3B. The name Chase Utley comes to mind. But, again, the stats suggest Iguchi might be a marginal upgrade at 3B or he might not. Certainly nothing to get your knickers in a twist about. I love the guy but, sheesh, he's the definition of an average hitter and, despite what you may have seen watching the game last night, since his arrival in the bigs his RF, ZR and FPCT have been consistently average to below average at 2B. Someone who is average offensively and defensively at 2B is not going to miraculously become better at both by moving him to 3B.

good move but would have been better oh 2 weeks ago utley'll be back soon and whattawe do with this cat :roll: :roll:

karn wrote:....whattawe do with this cat :roll:

occasionally put the cat on the field

too simple

JFLNYC wrote:

Woody wrote:

JFLNYC wrote: It's anybody's guess right now, but he'd likely be no better than Helms/Dobbs defensively.

Are you serious with this? Just look at his reaction time and how good his hands were in the 9th last night. You can't tell me Dobbs or Helms would have made those plays. If you can field a ball, you can field a ball. Reaction times may be different, but you don't all of a sudden forget how to catch a ball if you move to third base

Are you serious? Not everyone who can play 2B can play 3B. The name Chase Utley comes to mind. But, again, the stats suggest Iguchi might be a marginal upgrade at 3B or he might not. Certainly nothing to get your knickers in a twist about. I love the guy but, sheesh, he's the definition of an average hitter and, despite what you may have seen watching the game last night, since his arrival in the bigs his RF, ZR and FPCT have been consistently average to below average at 2B. Someone who is average offensively and defensively at 2B is not going to miraculously become better at both by moving him to 3B.

We're talking short term fix at 3B for the rest of the season. Not putting Iguchi at third until 2012.

I'd just platoon Dobbs and Branyan.

Defensive breakdowns for our 3B candidates, first FRAR then RZR

Helms: +4 (54 G)
Dobbs: +3 (33 G)
Nunez: +13 (75 G)

Helms: .700
Dobbs: .704
Nunez: .748

The top 3 in the NL in terms of RZR

Rolen: .763
Feliz: .759
Wright: .724

If Nunez had played enough to qualify, he'd be 3rd.

The question is, is the bump in defense enough to overshadow the offense. Iguchi appears to be a better athlete than Helms, do we think he'd be worse than him at 3B defensively? Would Iguchi by a lot better than Nunez offensively? Yeah, I think so.

The Phillies have Helms, Dobbs, Nunez and now Branyan and possibly Iguchi as 3rd base possibilities. None of them are really great options there. But all of them have some strengths.

Nunez seems like the only one who is a good glove there but his bat is terrible and not good even when he's hot. Helms has had a couple of good years in a limited role with other teams but he might be the worst of the gloves and he's not hitting much this season. Dobbs is a career minor leaguer who is having a season for the ages for him (I think so anyway -- I don't think he's really this good). He's not exactly a slick glove man. Branyan is a professional, travelling bat who is the "King of the Three True Outcomes." Teams seem to want him due to his patience and power (I've always liked that about him) but no one seems to want to keep him around. He's not a real glove man either from what I can tell.

Now we have Iguchi, who is a nice hitter: pretty good patience, a little power, and pretty high average potential. He hasn't played 3B in a long, long time if ever. MOST guys who can play 2B and SS should be able to handle 3B but not always.

We have a whole bunch of guys who aren't all that good who can play 3B and do well if they get hot for a while. If Manuel can be Mr. Magic here, the Phils can get some good production out of 3B for the next couple of months. It will be interesting to see what he does. I don't think there's one best answer here as long as they don't think Nunez can hit or the other guys are gold glovers there.

James. Regarding Iguchi and Nunez you meant offensively didn't you?

smitty wrote:James. Regarding Iguchi and Nunez you meant offensively didn't you?

Yeah. Fixed.

FTN wrote:

smitty wrote:James. Regarding Iguchi and Nunez you meant offensively didn't you?

Yeah. Fixed.

What you say makes sense to me. I'd kinda like to give him a shot because there's a chance he's the 2nd best glove out of the bunch and he's a big, big upgrade over Nunez with the bat. He's the best chance of getting a proper mix of offense and defense. He's not quite good enough a hitter to be a long term fix in my view. But he cold be the ideal solution if his defense is indeed superior to the non-Nunez guys.

Branyan, Dobbs, Helms also gives you a pretty decent hitting bench too.

FTN wrote:The question is, is the bump in defense enough to overshadow the offense. Iguchi appears to be a better athlete than Helms, do we think he'd be worse than him at 3B defensively? Would Iguchi by a lot better than Nunez offensively? Yeah, I think so.

I think so, too. But there's no reason to think he'd be better defensively. He's an average 2B and would, at best, probably be average at 3B.

He might be better than Helms offensively but, in the short term, Helms has shown he can get really hot. Defensively, it's anybody's guess, but there's no reason to think he'd be more than a marginal improvement defensively. He's not a Gold Glover at 2B. He's not going to morph into one at 3B.

Despite his nice run so far with the Phils, it's hard to tell whether he'd be better offensively than Dobbs. He'd likely walk more, but be less of a power/RBI guy. Defensively, probably a wash.

Overall, the Phils have gotten below average offense from 3B this year and average to somewhat above average defense. Cholly's done a decent job of mixing and matching from among three flawed candidates. If Iguchi is as good at 3B as at 2B (there's no reason to think he'd be better), you'd get average offense and average defense. Overall? Probably pretty much a wash. A Dobbs/Iguchi platoon might be the best alternative, but there's no reason to think there would be a significant net WARP improvement, if any. Any of Dobbs, Helms, Iguchi or Branyan could get hot for 6 weeks. Heck, even Nunez, who's the best choice defensively had an almost-respectable .706 OPS last September.

There's no clear-cut good choice. We've all suffered through so much bad play at 3B the last few years, we're desperate for an improvement. But there's just no reason to think Iguchi at 3B would be a significant upgrade overall (offensively and defensively) from what the Phils have gotten so far this year.

could he play LF?

I'd rather have him in the OF in 2008 in Rowand isn't re-signed...

Warszawa wrote:could he play LF?

I'd rather have him in the OF in 2008 in Rowand isn't re-signed...

Are you implying that Iguchi would be a better option in leftfield than Burrell?

dont start, robert. dont even start.

I would put Burrell in RF and use Bourn as a 4th OF (maybe 300 ABS)

Warszawa wrote:I would put Burrell in RF and use Bourn as a 4th OF (maybe 300 ABS)

I'd put Rollins at third, Utley right on second, put Gooch in LF and Burrell in deep left.