Disco Stu wrote:

Laexile wrote:How is Iguchi a decent fielder? He's never played third. Third base is the toughest defensive position outside of catcher. Chase Utley was a good second baseman and played a season at third in AAA and was horrible. There's no reason to think that Iguchi can be any better than Helms or Dobbs at a difficult position he's never played before.

Your argument for Iguchi is his patience? He has a low walk rate which has gotten lower since coming to the Phillies. Patience is not an asset. He's a decent hitter, especially for a second baseman. But he isn't a good hitter and probably not a good fielder at third. They have better already.

I am acutally more on your side on this, but what evidence do you have to support the bolded part above.

None. I was thinking if I wrote third base was the toughest position someone would have started an argument that catcher was. That has nothing to do with the discussion.

You're all over the place. He doesn't have patience! Patience isn't good!
PA/BB
9.375 - 07
10.59 - 06
12.36 - 05

Yeah, just look at that walk rate get worse and worse.
Third being the next most difficult position next to catcher is laughable. Utley couldn't play third because his arm wasn't strong enough. Second is harder to play. Wes Helms trying to turn a double play at second would be comedy gold. You've given me extremely small sample sizes of Dobbs/Helms OPS compared to Iguchi's full seasons and somehow this is the basis for why Iguchi would be a bad fielder at third.

Sorry if I left off the words "of his" after "Patience isn't an asset." Those numbers aren't good.

I wrote "He has a low walk rate which has gotten lower since coming to the Phillies."

So what do you do? You give me his walk rates for the last three years and somehow think that counters the statement I made. And those aren't good walk rates.

Your laughing is amusing. Third is much more difficult to play than second. At third, the ball comes at you very fast, a lot faster than second. It's where righties pull the ball. Third base has to deal with bunts. Second doesn't. You mention turning a double play. Even failing to turn one still results in an out. At third, fielding the ball cleanly is very hard. Ask anyone who's ever played.

I'll give you hard statistical evidence. The fielding percentage for Major League third basemen this year is .955. It's .985 for second basemen. Go to any year and it's roughly the same dramatic difference. Take a look at almost any player who has played both. Say the sure handed Abe Nunez. In 258 career games at second he has a .985 fielding percentage. In 277 at third, it's .959.

Iguchi might be able to be a decent third baseman if he spends a year playing there, but fielding ground balls in practice for two weeks isn't enough. He likely wouldn't be an improvement over the worst third basemen right now.

Laexile wrote:

Disco Stu wrote:

Laexile wrote:How is Iguchi a decent fielder? He's never played third. Third base is the toughest defensive position outside of catcher. Chase Utley was a good second baseman and played a season at third in AAA and was horrible. There's no reason to think that Iguchi can be any better than Helms or Dobbs at a difficult position he's never played before.

Your argument for Iguchi is his patience? He has a low walk rate which has gotten lower since coming to the Phillies. Patience is not an asset. He's a decent hitter, especially for a second baseman. But he isn't a good hitter and probably not a good fielder at third. They have better already.

I am acutally more on your side on this, but what evidence do you have to support the bolded part above.

None. I was thinking if I wrote third base was the toughest position someone would have started an argument that catcher was. That has nothing to do with the discussion.

So why add it? If you are making stuff up, then it makes it harder to back you.

Disco Stu wrote:

Laexile wrote:

Disco Stu wrote:

Laexile wrote:How is Iguchi a decent fielder? He's never played third. Third base is the toughest defensive position outside of catcher. Chase Utley was a good second baseman and played a season at third in AAA and was horrible. There's no reason to think that Iguchi can be any better than Helms or Dobbs at a difficult position he's never played before.

Your argument for Iguchi is his patience? He has a low walk rate which has gotten lower since coming to the Phillies. Patience is not an asset. He's a decent hitter, especially for a second baseman. But he isn't a good hitter and probably not a good fielder at third. They have better already.

I am acutally more on your side on this, but what evidence do you have to support the bolded part above.

None. I was thinking if I wrote third base was the toughest position someone would have started an argument that catcher was. That has nothing to do with the discussion.

So why add it? If you are making stuff up, then it makes it harder to back you.

Good point. I was attempting to show how hard third base was compared to second base but that seemed to drive the point home more. Clearly I should have just compared third to second.

Laexile wrote:None. I was thinking if I wrote third base was the toughest position someone would have started an argument that catcher was. That has nothing to do with the discussion.

The argument is that third base is not even the second toughest.

Sorry if I left off the words "of his" after "Patience isn't an asset." Those numbers aren't good.

I wrote "He has a low walk rate which has gotten lower since coming to the Phillies."

He has 137 PA with the Phillies. That's a ridiculously small sample size. A good hitter gets a walk around every 10 AB. Iguchi gets one about every 9.41 AB and has improved each year.

So what do you do? You give me his walk rates for the last three years and somehow think that counters the statement I made. And those aren't good walk rates.

It counters it because you're basing his walk rate on an absurdly small sample size. He's been on the Phillies since the beginning of freaking August. That's not even two months! I'm giving much larger samples.

Iguchi throughout his ML career has consistently been average to below average defensively (his FP of .985 is exactly league average and his RF9 is slightly below league average). Dobbs' lifetime FP at 3B is .945 (slightly below the league average of .954) and his RF9 is slightly above league average. Iguchi is a slightly below league average 2B. There's no reason to think he's going to morph into a better 3B than he is a 2B, nor that he'll be better than Dobb's league average defensive play at 3B.

Iguchi's lifetime OPS+ is 99 (108 in his brief time with the Phils so far). Dobbs' lifetime OPS+ is 91 (106 this year when he's accumulated more than half his lifetime PA). So there's very little to choose between Iguchi and Dobbs offensively. You could make an argument for a platoon, since Iguchi's lifetime OPS+ vs. LHP is significantly better than Dobbs' (100 vs. 65). But against RHP Dobbs has a slight edge (103 to 99).

So, maybe Iguchi against LHP. But unless Iguchi suddenly become a significantly better hitter and better defensively at 3B than he's been at 2B, he's no better choice (and might be slightly worse) than Dobbs offensively or defensively against RHP.

[P.S. For fans of other defensive metrics, Iguchi's lifetime Rate is 92 and his lifetime FRAA is minus 32. Dobbs' lifetime Rate as a 3B is 99 and his lifetime FRAA is minus 1. All stats include this year.]

philliesphhan wrote:

Laexile wrote:None. I was thinking if I wrote third base was the toughest position someone would have started an argument that catcher was. That has nothing to do with the discussion.

The argument is that third base is not even the second toughest.

Your argument is that he'll be a good third baseman. I don't know what you base that on. Third base has the lowest fielding percentage of any position by far. Abe Nunez plays both and is much better at second. So I've shown evidence that it is a lot harder than second and that a player who has never played there isn't likely to do well. What is your evidence to contradict that?

Sorry if I left off the words "of his" after "Patience isn't an asset." Those numbers aren't good.

I wrote "He has a low walk rate which has gotten lower since coming to the Phillies."

He has 137 PA with the Phillies. That's a ridiculously small sample size. A good hitter gets a walk around every 10 AB. Iguchi gets one about every 9.41 AB and has improved each year.

So what do you do? You give me his walk rates for the last three years and somehow think that counters the statement I made. And those aren't good walk rates.

It counters it because you're basing his walk rate on an absurdly small sample size. He's been on the Phillies since the beginning of freaking August. That's not even two months! I'm giving much larger samples.

You say you want sample size, so you've decided to pick and choose Iguchi's numbers, by not including 2005 and 2006. The average non-pitcher walks once every 11.5 plate appearances. For his career, Iguchi is a little above average at one every 10.7. This year he's one every 9.4. Again that's above average but it isn't good.

Yes, Iguchi is more patient than Dobbs or Helms, but he doesn't have a better OPS. This is mostly because he has a lower slugging percentage. The Phillies' third baseman usually hits 7th. Getting on base is less valuable in this spot because the Phillies follow with the #8 hitter and pitcher, players unlikely to drive him in. The players in front of him are more likely to be on base, however. So a higher slugging percentage is beneficial.

You're welcome to believe that Iguchi would be a better third baseman because he walks more. I don't know if anyone else only uses that one criteria.

So, maybe Iguchi against LHP. But unless Iguchi suddenly become a significantly better hitter and better defensively at 3B than he's been at 2B, he's no better choice (and might be slightly worse) than Dobbs offensively or defensively against RHP.

You should compare Iguchi vs. Helms with lefties.

Laexile wrote:How is Iguchi a decent fielder? He's never played third. Third base is the toughest defensive position outside of catcher. Chase Utley was a good second baseman and played a season at third in AAA and was horrible. There's no reason to think that Iguchi can be any better than Helms or Dobbs at a difficult position he's never played before.

Your argument for Iguchi is his patience? He has a low walk rate which has gotten lower since coming to the Phillies. Patience is not an asset. He's a decent hitter, especially for a second baseman. But he isn't a good hitter and probably not a good fielder at third. They have better already.

No, 3B is hardly the toughest defensive position outside of catcher. Most SS could play 3B, but not the other way around.

Laexile wrote:

So, maybe Iguchi against LHP. But unless Iguchi suddenly become a significantly better hitter and better defensively at 3B than he's been at 2B, he's no better choice (and might be slightly worse) than Dobbs offensively or defensively against RHP.

You should compare Iguchi vs. Helms with lefties.

I did, but didn't include it because Helms is so poor defensively at 3B (91 Rate, 2 RAR and -39 FRAA). I don't think Helms' bat is enough to offset his horrid defense at 3B -- even against LHP against whom he excels offensively.

Laexile wrote:You say you want sample size, so you've decided to pick and choose Iguchi's numbers, by not including 2005 and 2006. The average non-pitcher walks once every 11.5 plate appearances. For his career, Iguchi is a little above average at one every 10.7. This year he's one every 9.4. Again that's above average but it isn't good.

Pick and choose? I named his yearly numbers then his career numbers. How is that picking and choosing?

allentown wrote:

Laexile wrote:How is Iguchi a decent fielder? He's never played third. Third base is the toughest defensive position outside of catcher. Chase Utley was a good second baseman and played a season at third in AAA and was horrible. There's no reason to think that Iguchi can be any better than Helms or Dobbs at a difficult position he's never played before.

Your argument for Iguchi is his patience? He has a low walk rate which has gotten lower since coming to the Phillies. Patience is not an asset. He's a decent hitter, especially for a second baseman. But he isn't a good hitter and probably not a good fielder at third. They have better already.

No, 3B is hardly the toughest defensive position outside of catcher. Most SS could play 3B, but not the other way around.

I didn't say third basemen were the best defensive players, only that third base is a harder position to play than SS. Take ARod for example. His fielding percentage at short was .977, but at third it's .959. While less players may be capable of playing shortstop well, that doesn't make it the hardest position to play.

I did, but didn't include it because Helms is so poor defensively at 3B (91 Rate, 2 RAR and -39 FRAA). I don't think Helms' bat is enough to offset his horrid defense at 3B -- even against LHP against whom he excels offensively.

I don't know all these defensive terms, but Helms has a higher zone rating than Dobbs and his range factor and fielding percentage are not that far below him. Is Helms that much worse? Even if he is, we have no way of knowing if Iguchi would be better at third than Helms. That's possible, but Helms still hits lefties better. How much would you gain?

Here's the thing. There are 17 games left. Iguchi hasn't sucked since he came here. He's not A-Rod, we know that. But Helms shouldn't get another start, neither should Nunez. That leaves you with Dobbs. Is Dobbs the answer? He can't hit lefties at all. He's not very good defensively and has an erratic throwing arm. No one is saying we should give Iguchi 3B for the next 5 years. Why not put him in there for a week and see how he plays? He did a pretty decent job filling in for Utley. He's an everyday player and has been his whole professional career. This is by far the most Dobbs has ever played in his career, and as we found out, Helms is not an every day player.

You can look at the stats from 3 years ago, or on odd numbered days where there was a full moon. I'm simply talking about 3 more weeks to go. Do you honestly think Dobbs is a better all around hitter than Iguchi? If you do, that's fine. I don't. Hence, I'd like to see him given a chance.

philliesphhan wrote:

Laexile wrote:You say you want sample size, so you've decided to pick and choose Iguchi's numbers, by not including 2005 and 2006. The average non-pitcher walks once every 11.5 plate appearances. For his career, Iguchi is a little above average at one every 10.7. This year he's one every 9.4. Again that's above average but it isn't good.

Pick and choose? I named his yearly numbers then his career numbers. How is that picking and choosing?

You decided that the 2007 number was the only one that counted when you said "Iguchi gets one about every 9.41 AB and has improved each year." You picked that number and chose to drop the others.

FTN wrote:You can look at the stats from 3 years ago, or on odd numbered days where there was a full moon. I'm simply talking about 3 more weeks to go. Do you honestly think Dobbs is a better all around hitter than Iguchi? If you do, that's fine. I don't. Hence, I'd like to see him given a chance.

Against righties, Dobbs is a much better hitter. If you feel Helms shouldn't play against lefties, then play Iguchi. While I don't see a gain to playing Iguchi he probably wouldn't be any worse vs. lefites or at third. If there's no gain, why bother?

Comparing Iguchi to Nunez is senseless. Charlie plays Nunez for his defense, and it'd be tough for Iguchi to be better defensively. I agree with you that Nunez doesn't give them enough offense to play, but no matter if we agree or disagree Charlie will still play him.

Laexile wrote:

philliesphhan wrote:

Laexile wrote:You say you want sample size, so you've decided to pick and choose Iguchi's numbers, by not including 2005 and 2006. The average non-pitcher walks once every 11.5 plate appearances. For his career, Iguchi is a little above average at one every 10.7. This year he's one every 9.4. Again that's above average but it isn't good.

Pick and choose? I named his yearly numbers then his career numbers. How is that picking and choosing?

You decided that the 2007 number was the only one that counted when you said "Iguchi gets one about every 9.41 AB and has improved each year." You picked that number and chose to drop the others.

Wrong. That is his career number.
Here are these numbers again
PA/BB
9.375 - 07
10.59 - 06
12.36 - 05
and here it is as AB/BB
8.19 - 07
9.40 - 06
10.87 - 05

Laexile wrote:

FTN wrote:You can look at the stats from 3 years ago, or on odd numbered days where there was a full moon. I'm simply talking about 3 more weeks to go. Do you honestly think Dobbs is a better all around hitter than Iguchi? If you do, that's fine. I don't. Hence, I'd like to see him given a chance.

Against righties, Dobbs is a much better hitter.

Nope
Dobbs
BA OBP SLG OPS
.273 .320 .431 .751

Iguchi
BA OBP SLG OPS
.283 .348 .421 .769

I'll give you the best reasons not to play Iguchi at 3B. Here are his Rates and RAA's in his 2.5+ seasons with the Sox:

Rate RAA
05 88 -16
06 90 -13
07 91 -8

Those numbers stink. The best you can say is he stunk a little less each year. His defensive numbers with the Phils at 2B are much better, but his track record suggests that's a small sample size anomaly.

He's not very good at 2B. There's no reason to think he'll be better at 3B than he's been at 2B. The evidence suggests he'd be worse defensively than Dobbs. In fact, his Rate & RAA at 2B are quite comparable to Helms' as a 3B, which is to say, not good at all.

Iguchi come back or no?

He wants to play everyday, so I would say he does not return

Its a shame that they weren't in a position where they could have given him a few tries at 3RD.

I have heard that 3rd is one of the toughest of all positions to field.