CFP wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

CFP wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

ReadingPhilly wrote:cesar seems like the prototypical non-tender.

At the same time, it's hard for me to ignore that outside of a few hot streaks Kingery has looked a lot like 2018 Kingery at the plate.

If you ignore Scott Kingery playing well, he sucks!

Which hot streak bothered you most? .406/.457/.719 in April, .295/.351/.600 in June, or .287/.346/.479 in August? If you take all of those away from him, he really sucks!

I watch and root for him (and every other Phillies) every fucking game. In those good months he's a contributor for a week and then a void for 20 games.

But this is just absolutely not true, and "watching the games" or a quick look at Baseball-Reference would tell you otherwise.

Let's start with June since he wasn't starting full time in April.

7 games from June 10-19: 13 for 26 = .500 avg, 5 HRs, 3 2B, 1 3B
Other 20 games: 18 for 79 = .228 avg, 2 HRs, 6 2B

Had another California Cole that the city converted.

The Angel's needing to make a splash is becoming a laugh line, right? They have an MVP candidate while putting up a worse record then the down trodden Phils (again), and after adding 2 way threat Shohei Ohtani (Sho Time is injured again) . I know it is about the coin, but assuming pay is relative can Middleton make a batter case about building to win? Moreno V Middleton.

Just for an exercise, what do you think an off season trading of a salary controlled player in Rhys would get you in terms of young pitching in return?

thephan wrote:Had another California Cole that the city converted.

The Angel's needing to make a splash is becoming a laugh line, right? They have an MVP candidate while putting up a worse record then the down trodden Phils (again), and after adding 2 way threat Shohei Ohtani (Sho Time is injured again) . I know it is about the coin, but assuming pay is relative can Middleton make a batter case about building to win? Moreno V Middleton.

I think at this point we have to realize winning isn't always the priority for players.

stevemc wrote:Just for an exercise, what do you think an off season trading of a salary controlled player in Rhys would get you in terms of young pitching in return?

I'm in favor of trading Rhys before he gets expensive but right now the return would be disappointing.

As a fanbase we still picture 2017 Rhys but that's not what he appears to be. He's not young and will start getting paid.

Leaving 2017 alone, 2018-2019 Rhys is one of only 4 players with 60+ homers and 180+ walks over the last 2 years, along with Trout, Bregman, and Harper.

He's 26, isn't arbitration eligible until 2021, and not a free agent until 2024. I'd probably want to keep him around for his pre-free-agency years, certainly his remaining pre-arb year.

Realmuto is arb-eligible now, free agent in 2021, is 28, and plays catcher. HE is going to be exceedingly expensive, and seems quite likely to underperform whatever money he gets, as a 30-33 year old catcher. But we're obviously not letting him go, after investing that kind of talent in acquiring him. He didn't turn into ROAD STATS TIMES 2, either.

We need a 3rd basemen. We need a permanent home for Kingery, at 2B. But dear god, what we really really need is pitching. Buy both Coles, please.

Shore wrote:We need a 3rd basemen. We need a permanent home for Kingery, at 2B. But dear god, what we really really need is pitching. Buy both Coles, please.

Got bottom paged, but Rendon to the Phils seems unlikely if they believe that Bohm can play the position.

Perhaps in the mental exercise above where Rhys gets moved then Bohm plays first? Or JTR plays 1st in that scenario?

that's mental all right

Uncle Milty wrote:

thephan wrote:Had another California Cole that the city converted.

The Angel's needing to make a splash is becoming a laugh line, right? They have an MVP candidate while putting up a worse record then the down trodden Phils (again), and after adding 2 way threat Shohei Ohtani (Sho Time is injured again) . I know it is about the coin, but assuming pay is relative can Middleton make a batter case about building to win? Moreno V Middleton.

I think at this point we have to realize winning isn't always the priority for players.

Are we just realizing this now?

LastTrain wrote:With arb estimates, Phils are currently around $175M against the 2020 cap of $208M. That's assuming Neshek is paid his $750k buyout instead of his $7M option. Picking up Hughes' option would cost another $2.75M against the cap.

Potential non-tender casualties?
Eickhoff is included in those figures at a $1.5M arb estimate.
Franco is estimated at $7.5M in arb.
Hernandez is estimated at $11M, but I can't see them just letting him go.
Alvarez is estimated at $3M.

I think Franco is more likely to be gone than Cesar. Roll with Kingery at 3b until Bohm is ready, then return him to his super-utility role. Seems like they've been trying to trade Cesar for 2 years now, and can't get value for him. If, as mentioned above, his WAR exceeds his salary, might as well hold on to him until he hits FA.

Most sources have Rhys arb eligible 2021. Fangraphs has 2020. Is there an expectation for a lower than normal cutoff for super 2 status?

Not that I know of. He only played 2 months in 2017, so he doesn't have enough time for Super 2

I was considering the "mental" exercise above. Would it make sense if you got a young #1 or #2 starter from an organization not willing to pay a late arbitration figure (or someone under contract) for Rhys and supplemented with a Rendon signing and Bohm to 1B, are we on a more solid foundation?

stevemc wrote:I was considering the "mental" exercise above. Would it make sense if you got a young #1 or #2 starter from an organization not willing to pay a late arbitration figure (or someone under contract) for Rhys and supplemented with a Rendon signing and Bohm to 1B, are we on a more solid foundation?

Absolutely for a solid, controllable #2. If you're guaranteeing a Rendon signing, I'd do it for a #3.

Uncle Milty wrote:Most sources have Rhys arb eligible 2021. Fangraphs has 2020. Is there an expectation for a lower than normal cutoff for super 2 status?

While many teams are waiting to bring up their perceived stud prospects until after the typical early June cutoff point for Super 2, and that fact may indeed be pushing the cutoff point lower, it hasn't moved far enough for Rhys. Less than 120 days is generally safe, and Rhys was only at 53.

Uncle Milty wrote:

CFP wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

CFP wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

ReadingPhilly wrote:cesar seems like the prototypical non-tender.

At the same time, it's hard for me to ignore that outside of a few hot streaks Kingery has looked a lot like 2018 Kingery at the plate.

If you ignore Scott Kingery playing well, he sucks!

Which hot streak bothered you most? .406/.457/.719 in April, .295/.351/.600 in June, or .287/.346/.479 in August? If you take all of those away from him, he really sucks!

I watch and root for him (and every other Phillies) every fucking game. In those good months he's a contributor for a week and then a void for 20 games.

But this is just absolutely not true, and "watching the games" or a quick look at Baseball-Reference would tell you otherwise.

Let's start with June since he wasn't starting full time in April.

7 games from June 10-19: 13 for 26 = .500 avg, 5 HRs, 3 2B, 1 3B
Other 20 games: 18 for 79 = .228 avg, 2 HRs, 6 2B

You should probably quit this absurd premise at some point. Kingery is a middle infielder who can play multiple positions and has slugged .477 this season. The fact that you can cherry pick cold streaks is utterly meaningless. Outside of maybe Trout, you can do this to any player to make them look bad.

Uncle Milty wrote:

stevemc wrote:I was considering the "mental" exercise above. Would it make sense if you got a young #1 or #2 starter from an organization not willing to pay a late arbitration figure (or someone under contract) for Rhys and supplemented with a Rendon signing and Bohm to 1B, are we on a more solid foundation?

Absolutely for a solid, controllable #2. If you're guaranteeing a Rendon signing, I'd do it for a #3.

Trading Hoskins for a #3, so that Alec Bohm can play 1B for you, is a nightmare scenario, IMO.

Shore wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

stevemc wrote:I was considering the "mental" exercise above. Would it make sense if you got a young #1 or #2 starter from an organization not willing to pay a late arbitration figure (or someone under contract) for Rhys and supplemented with a Rendon signing and Bohm to 1B, are we on a more solid foundation?

Absolutely for a solid, controllable #2. If you're guaranteeing a Rendon signing, I'd do it for a #3.

Trading Hoskins for a #3, so that Alec Bohm can play 1B for you, is a nightmare scenario, IMO.

I don't think that trading Hoskins will get you anything back that is worth trading Hoskins for.

Shore wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

stevemc wrote:I was considering the "mental" exercise above. Would it make sense if you got a young #1 or #2 starter from an organization not willing to pay a late arbitration figure (or someone under contract) for Rhys and supplemented with a Rendon signing and Bohm to 1B, are we on a more solid foundation?

Absolutely for a solid, controllable #2. If you're guaranteeing a Rendon signing, I'd do it for a #3.

Trading Hoskins for a #3, so that Alec Bohm can play 1B for you, is a nightmare scenario, IMO.

Where did I say trade him for a #3 so Bohm can play 1B? The idea was that Rendon & a solid, controllable #3 > Rhys.

philliesphhan wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

CFP wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

CFP wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

ReadingPhilly wrote:cesar seems like the prototypical non-tender.

At the same time, it's hard for me to ignore that outside of a few hot streaks Kingery has looked a lot like 2018 Kingery at the plate.

If you ignore Scott Kingery playing well, he sucks!

Which hot streak bothered you most? .406/.457/.719 in April, .295/.351/.600 in June, or .287/.346/.479 in August? If you take all of those away from him, he really sucks!

I watch and root for him (and every other Phillies) every fucking game. In those good months he's a contributor for a week and then a void for 20 games.

But this is just absolutely not true, and "watching the games" or a quick look at Baseball-Reference would tell you otherwise.

Let's start with June since he wasn't starting full time in April.

7 games from June 10-19: 13 for 26 = .500 avg, 5 HRs, 3 2B, 1 3B
Other 20 games: 18 for 79 = .228 avg, 2 HRs, 6 2B

You should probably quit this absurd premise at some point. Kingery is a middle infielder who can play multiple positions and has slugged .477 this season. The fact that you can cherry pick cold streaks is utterly meaningless. Outside of maybe Trout, you can do this to any player to make them look bad.

LOL