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Postby dajafi » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:59:33

Here's a review of a new documentary, "Stealing America," appearing in the noted right-wing apologist journal salon.com. I think I'm with the reviewer:

Voices in "Stealing America" range from computer analyst Bruce O'Dell (one of its producers, and provider of its most nuanced and eloquent perspective) to pollster John Zogby, Florida election official Ion Sancho and former Wall Street Journal editor Paul Craig Roberts, among many others. Like Kennedy, Palast and Miller, those people all smelled a rat in 2004, but Fadiman never makes clear that you might not get any two of them to agree how big the rat was or how it got in the house.

Did election officials in many jurisdictions make it inordinately difficult for African-Americans and other pro-Democratic demographics to vote, either through incompetence, malice or both? I think there's no question about it, and by showing us those appallingly long lines at black Ohio precincts, Fadiman drives that home.
...
"Stealing America" leaps directly from that level of inquiry, and several related questions about vote suppression, to the twilight zone: Was there also massive electoral fraud in 2004, involving hundreds if not thousands of conspirators, in which 6 million votes or so, along with four or five states, were electronically switched from Kerry to George W. Bush? And does the much-bruited exit-polling problem -- in 10 of the 11 crucial battleground states, Election Day exit polls suggested a better result for Kerry than the reported vote -- constitute an almost-smoking gun?

Look, I don't know. I write about show business. It would be idiotic for me or anybody else to insist that it's an impossible scenario. Explanations abound for the exit-poll anomalies, but I think we can all agree they're a problem. Here's what I do know: 1) As Fadiman's computer experts tell us, fixing a moderately large number of votes is technically feasible. 2) If Karl Rove and Dick Cheney could do such a thing, they certainly would. 3) The whole thing is unproven and unprovable, and gets a pretty low Occam's-razor score for probability. Conspiracy theories, whether they're about the JFK assassination or 9/11 or Flight 800 or, I don't know, the 2002 Kings-Lakers series, represent our desire to see order in a chaotic and ambiguous universe, whose patterns are generally too large for us to grasp. On a more practical level, they generally require a degree of competence, organization and secrecy for which human beings are not much noted.

My former Salon colleague Farhad Manjoo endeared himself to many, many readers (that's a joke!) by scrutinizing the cases for fraud made by Kennedy and Miller, among others, and finding them flimsy. Fadiman never even acknowledges, let alone addresses, the counter-arguments raised by Manjoo, pollster Mark Blumenthal, investigative journalist Mark Hertsgaard and many others. That's why I describe her film as propaganda, and why I haven't called it a documentary. It's one thing to have a point of view, even an unpopular or outrageous one, and pursue it vehemently. It's quite another to feign an interest in the truth while ignoring all complicating or contrary evidence.

But let's back up for a second and acknowledge that Fadiman's film, like Miller's book and Kennedy's Rolling Stone article and Palast, Hertsgaard and Manjoo's reporting, is motivated by righteous indignation and aimed at virtuous ends. Manjoo was pilloried in Salon's letters section as an election Pollyanna, a Rovian agent and worse, but here's what he wrote while reviewing (and rejecting) Mark Crispin Miller's book in 2005: "The fact is that the machinery of American democracy is broken; mistakes, inaccuracies, chicaneries, snafus, frauds, fiascos and disasters debilitate almost every race everywhere every two years, with the result that increasing numbers of Americans report feeling alienated by the voting process. It's no exaggeration to say the problem has reached the level of a national emergency."


What might bother me most about this whole argument is that rather than using it as a justification for strong new measures to improve the functioning of our democracy, everyone just points fingers and uses it for fundraising. This at least raises the possibility that all involved parties are less interested in better reflecting the democratic will of the people than simply winning.

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Postby Laexile » Fri Aug 01, 2008 13:03:14

Philly the Kid wrote:Hersh: US Considered Ways to Provoke War with Iran[/url]

What irks me about Seymour Hersh:

1) He reports things few people could have told him, most of whom wouldn't talk to him, and he never sources any of it. He can say anything he wants.

2) He reports the inner workings of the U.S. government that benefit our enemies more than they benefit the general public.

I'd hope that the Bush administration had secret meetings about how to provoke war with Iran. I think provoking war with Iran is a bad idea, but where would the world be now if Roosevelt hadn't provoked war with Japan and Germany? Our government should have plans on how to invade every country and work out every scenario. I don't want a government that's unprepared for anything they might have to do. I don't see how giving our plans to Iran is any different than telling the Taliban our battle plan.
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Postby Philly the Kid » Fri Aug 01, 2008 13:03:45

serious questions about 2004 via exit polls

"...There is already a strong case that there were significant irregularities in the presidential vote count from the 2004 election. Nevertheless, critics are asking for firmer proof before going forward with a thorough investigation. We feel srtongly that this is the wrong standard. One cannot have proof before an investigation.

In fact, the burden of proof should be to show that the election process is accurate and fair. The integrity of the American electoral system can and should be beyond reproach. ..."

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Postby FTN » Fri Aug 01, 2008 13:04:03

Laexile wrote:
Philly the Kid wrote:Hersh: US Considered Ways to Provoke War with Iran[/url]

What irks me about Seymour Hersh:

1) He reports things few people could have told him, most of whom wouldn't talk to him, and he never sources any of it. He can say anything he wants.

2) He reports the inner workings of the U.S. government that benefit our enemies more than they benefit the general public.

I'd hope that the Bush administration had secret meetings about how to provoke war with Iran. I think provoking war with Iran is a bad idea, but where would the world be now if Roosevelt hadn't provoked war with Japan and Germany? Our government should have plans on how to invade every country and work out every scenario. I don't want a government that's unprepared for anything they might have to do. I don't see how giving our plans to Iran is any different than telling the Taliban our battle plan.


umm.

wow.

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Postby jerseyhoya » Fri Aug 01, 2008 13:11:02

Wait, what? Why would we should we hold secret meetings on how to provoke war with Iran? If we really want to attack Iran’s nuclear facilities, we should do so. I don’t think anyone really wants to go to real actual war with Iran, like with an invasion and occupation, even among the Cheney crowd. I thought the big issue was whether or not to blow up their nuke facilities, which is something I can see pros and cons for, but at the moment would definitely put myself on the side of heck no.

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Postby Houshphandzadeh » Fri Aug 01, 2008 13:12:23

Laexile wrote:Keeping with the theme of Republican conspiracies:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulcGldJlKiA[/youtube]

There is no way this isn't put out by Republicans. He hits on several stereotype that white people have about blacks, but are afraid of admitting. Let's see. Black men are misogynistic. Check. Black men hate white men. Check. Black men are ostentatious when they have wealth. Check. If a Black man becomes President he'll govern only for Blacks. Check. The Republicans are practicing the politics of fear again.

Are you serious? Can't tell.

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Postby Woody » Fri Aug 01, 2008 13:12:57

I think LA has lost his mind today?
you sure do seem to have a lot of time on your hands to be on this forum? Do you have a job? Are you a shut-in?

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Postby drsmooth » Fri Aug 01, 2008 13:24:20

Philly the Kid wrote:serious questions about 2004 via exit polls

"...There is already a strong case that there were significant irregularities in the presidential vote count from the 2004 election. Nevertheless, critics are asking for firmer proof before going forward with a thorough investigation. We feel srtongly that this is the wrong standard. One cannot have proof before an investigation.

In fact, the burden of proof should be to show that the election process is accurate and fair. The integrity of the American electoral system can and should be beyond reproach. ..."


Sometimes word choice counts. "The critics" are probably misquoted here; that is, they're probably asking that there be firmer evidence, not further proof, before going forward. Not an especially creative objection, but quite reasonable on its face.
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Postby Laexile » Fri Aug 01, 2008 13:27:24

Woody wrote:I think LA has lost his mind today?

Today? I'll take that as a compliment. Housh, of course that was tongue in cheek. No matter how dirty the Republicans get, and they can get dirty, there's no way they'd ever be able to put out something like that. It gives the impression that Blacks, and thus Obama, hate anyone that isn't Black and want a country that's run just for them. There is a chance that people will actually believe that the ad is from the Obama campaign. That video is just so horrible for Obama that it boggles the mind that someone who supports him would put it out.
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Postby Houshphandzadeh » Fri Aug 01, 2008 13:32:36

Laexile wrote:
Woody wrote:I think LA has lost his mind today?

Today? I'll take that as a compliment. Housh, of course that was tongue in cheek. No matter how dirty the Republicans get, and they can get dirty, there's no way they'd ever be able to put out something like that. It gives the impression that Blacks, and thus Obama, hate anyone that isn't Black and want a country that's run just for them. There is a chance that people will actually believe that the ad is from the Obama campaign. That video is just so horrible for Obama that it boggles the mind that someone who supports him would put it out.

Oh. I was just confused because it's not an ad; it's a Ludacris track from a DJ Drama mixtape that someone put on top of a video so people could listen to it on youtube, just like happens to almost any song in existence anymore. Other people put the same song on top of a still image of Luda or Obama. I don't think anyone will believe either campaign was involved.

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Postby BuddyGroom » Fri Aug 01, 2008 13:36:11

jerseyhoya wrote:No. It's not.

Secrets are hard to keep. Grand conspiracies when every freaking town and county has its own dumb way of voting are just about impossible. Why do they have Bush win in 2004, then let Mike DeWine and KEN BLACKWELL get crushed in 2006?

This stuff is almost as dumb as the 9/11 conspiracy crap.


Nobody let DeWine and Blackwell get crushed in 2006. Election stealing methods only tend to be useful in close races. I'm not saying Bush stole Ohio in 2004, just saying the example of DeWine and Blackwell's losses in 2006 don't prove that he didn't.
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Postby Laexile » Fri Aug 01, 2008 15:03:10

Houshphandzadeh wrote:
Laexile wrote:
Woody wrote:I think LA has lost his mind today?

Today? I'll take that as a compliment. Housh, of course that was tongue in cheek. No matter how dirty the Republicans get, and they can get dirty, there's no way they'd ever be able to put out something like that. It gives the impression that Blacks, and thus Obama, hate anyone that isn't Black and want a country that's run just for them. There is a chance that people will actually believe that the ad is from the Obama campaign. That video is just so horrible for Obama that it boggles the mind that someone who supports him would put it out.

Oh. I was just confused because it's not an ad; it's a Ludacris track from a DJ Drama mixtape that someone put on top of a video so people could listen to it on youtube, just like happens to almost any song in existence anymore. Other people put the same song on top of a still image of Luda or Obama. I don't think anyone will believe either campaign was involved.

This is the United States of America. Some people will.

Nobody let DeWine and Blackwell get crushed in 2006. Election stealing methods only tend to be useful in close races. I'm not saying Bush stole Ohio in 2004, just saying the example of DeWine and Blackwell's losses in 2006 don't prove that he didn't.

That's stupid. If they could only fix close races then how can they make sure the race is fixed? What if the state hadn't been close? What's the limit to the number of votes that can be stolen?
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Postby lethal » Fri Aug 01, 2008 15:51:59

Going back to that tax debate from a couple weeks ago:

[url=http://www.cbpp.org/3-27-08tax2.htm]AVERAGE INCOME IN 2006 UP $60,000 FOR TOP 1 PERCENT OF HOUSEHOLDS, JUST $430 FOR BOTTOM 90 PERCENT:
Income Concentration at Highest Level Since 1928, New Analysis Shows[/url]
Image

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Postby swishnicholson » Fri Aug 01, 2008 18:32:40

McCain's camp is sending this to supporters? See this would make me more likely to vote for Obama than the silly egg thing ever would. And Obama's "epiphany" line is funnier than anything in that one, too:



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mopkn0lPzM8&eurl=http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/08/john-mccain-com.html[/youtube]
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Postby drsmooth » Fri Aug 01, 2008 18:59:49

swishnicholson wrote:McCain's camp is sending this to supporters? See this would make me more likely to vote for Obama than the silly egg thing ever would. And Obama's "epiphany" line is funnier than anything in that one, too:



[youtube] ????? ????


uuhhhhwwwwweeeelllllllll.

we need to bring the big guns in on this one. where's jerseyhoya when you really need him?
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Postby jerseyhoya » Fri Aug 01, 2008 19:01:42

Personally I thought it was awesome and hilarious.

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Postby TenuredVulture » Fri Aug 01, 2008 19:17:29

It's the Republicans' answer to that moveon.org hope ad.
Be Bold!

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Postby Laexile » Fri Aug 01, 2008 20:18:01

lethal wrote:Going back to that tax debate from a couple weeks ago:

The tax debate was about whether Federal income was increasing due to Bush's tax cuts and whether the rich were paying their fair share. The question shouldn't be "are the rich getting richer?" It should be are the poor getting richer at a sufficient pace? If the answer is no, then government needs to address that.

Rich people didn't just get richer by the amount of taxes that were cut. Their wealth increase was much greater than that. The additional money in their hands helped them make money. Thus, they paid more in taxes.

There seems to be a belief that economic prosperity is a zero sum game. That if rich people don't do as well, then poorer people will. That isn't true. Exxon Mobil doing well is a huge benefit to their shareholders, half of whom are union pension funds, mutual funds, and hedge funds. It's a benefit to all of their employees, even those who aren't the CEO. Do we want to punish these people?

That ad is funny, if a little silly. Enough with that already.
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Postby lethal » Fri Aug 01, 2008 23:16:12

Your original argument was that the rich are paying a higher portion of the federal tax revenue, so they were paying their fair share. This chart shows that the rich are earning a higher share of all pre-tax income since the 1920. Given that, it should follow that they are paying a higher share. However, if you compare the tax percentage chart with the income percentage chart, you can see that the income percentage chart is growing at a faster rate than the tax percentage chart. Sure, you're right, the rich are paying a higher percentage of federal revenue, but you're wrong that it reflects a fair amount as their collective pre-tax incomes are growing at an even higher rate than that. They should be paying an even higher percentage than they are if you use percentage of total national personal income as a measure of basis of fairness.

That's the last I'll have to say on this topic. I leave the office to get away from tax policy, not to argue it online.

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Postby mpmcgraw » Sat Aug 02, 2008 01:06:11

lol Wal Mart told its workers not to vote Obama.

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