VoxOrion wrote:Notice how I'm trying to change the subject?

Sorry I was napping.

This is Ted Stevens's primary challenger:

The best hope the GOP has in Alaska is for a fresh face to knock off Stevens in the August 26 primary, allowing Republicans to approach the general election from higher ground. Well -- Vickers is nothing if not fresh. "As an American historian, I’ve studied every president," he told me over the phone today from Anchorage, "and I can say with authority that George Bush is the worst president in American history."

Oh, yes. Vic Vickers is a George-W.-Bush-hating, Exxon-despising, Iraq-War-loathing Republican who wants to "put an end to the stranglehold that Big Oil" has on Alaska and has an Iraq withdrawal plan -- if the Jordanians and Saudis don't start cutting big checks, you just pack everyone up and come right home -- that would make even Eli Pariser queasy.

It gets worse. Pressed to identify a Republican he admires in Alaska besides himself, Vickers could not come up with a single one. He is contributing $500 to Tim June, a Democrat running for the state Senate whom he describes as his "comrade in arms" in the cause of political reform. But he is a real Republican, Vickers insists -- just of an older vintage. "I'm running ... as a Bull Moose, a Teddy Roosevelt Republican," he explains. "The spirit of Alaska is embodied in the Bull Moose Party. [Roosevelt] was all about breaking with Standard Oil."

Laexile wrote:I went through the websites. I think ptk has successfully proven that someone could commit fraud on the Diebold machines. Granted, I said that a few pages ago, but he provides a lot of evidence. None of the articles provide any evidence that someone did tamper with any machines or who might have done so. While computer tampering isn't always detectable, it often is. I have a friend who is a forensic computer technician. He has an excellent success rate.

There are definitely irregularities in elections. I'd guess that in a few of them someone actually disenfranchised people. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it has happened. The burden of proof is higher than that. I'd guess that some people will try to cheat in this fall's election. Jumping between that and 1 or 5 or 10% of the votes are rigged is a huge leap.

Your burden of proof to confirm your beliefs is very low. Your burden of proof to disprove them is impossible.

I'm not done yet. This isn't all I'll come up with. I've mentioned anecdotally that during Kerry Bush election, there were huge disparities never seen before in exit poll history particularly where the machines were in use. I think I've demonstrated that I'm not the only one with concerns and that it is easy for foul stuff to occur. I think it has occured, I will find some further support for those claims.

I do not think 3 guys with burning embers of their stogies sit in a room and decide the fate of mankind, but I think there are things in play that would shock and paralyze most on this board if they ever came out fully. It would undermine entire belief systems...

Reality as we know it, is a lot more fragile than people realize.

VoxOrion wrote:

This is a lot clsoer to the truth that you realize Grand Puba of BSG...

No. It's not.

Secrets are hard to keep. Grand conspiracies when every freaking town and county has its own dumb way of voting are just about impossible. Why do they have Bush win in 2004, then let Mike DeWine and KEN BLACKWELL get crushed in 2006?

This stuff is almost as dumb as the 9/11 conspiracy crap.

Somehow many of these massively incompetent people are completely ingenious and perfect in one respect: a huge conspiracy to control the government and its people

Don't you understand that the incompetence thing is part of the act? They're not in hand. WAKE UP

That's cool. Say what you will. You guys take it down to simplistic analysis... it's impossible because it just is, they're too stupid to pull it off, it just can't be... there are relationships, things don't have to involve Cheney sitting down with some election official somewhere ... I will continue to present some things I think might hold merit to support my contentions.

Listen, some of what you say isn't that far-fetched. But having some credible sources will help. Not just the first link you find, then making everyone look into it. Then, 5 hours later, finding stuff

I watched "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room" tonight. Yeah, bad shit is going on, but claiming voting day fraud, making up a percentage, then linking to bushissatam.com don't work

the hope ad with the chicken and egg just played during the daily show


horrible, die please die

VoxOrion wrote:Notice how I'm trying to change the subject?

Sooo, what's your opinion of the lastest Bruce Willis Die Bold movie?

pacino wrote:the hope ad with the chicken and egg just played during the daily show


horrible, die please die

pachino hates baby chicks

(dunno why, they're quite delicious)

Philly the Kid wrote:That's cool. Say what you will. You guys take it down to simplistic analysis... it's impossible because it just is, they're too stupid to pull it off, it just can't be... there are relationships, things don't have to involve Cheney sitting down with some election official somewhere ... I will continue to present some things I think might hold merit to support my contentions.

Philly, the simplistic analysis is the point. "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." This isn't a hack, dopey, low-intellect way of viewing things - it's a well used logical and intelligent way of viewing things (no, it's not scientific but it's regularly used in early scientific evaluation).

What we know:
62 million people voted in November 2004
Bush won the re-election

Possibilities:

1. A greater number of those who voted selected Bush, despite the typical amount of static regarding claims of voter disenfranchisement and actual voter disenfranchisement.
2. A company who manufactures voting machines used its influence to alter the votes so that a given candidate would win. This was done despite poll monitor and poll operator's influence (who also have vested interests in seeing candidates who are not George Bush win and who were very much on their guard after having the last election "stolen" from them). Diebold did this either because (despite variations there are really only three options) they are mavericks, they were paid to, or they were forced to. In all three cases they managed to do this without any credible whistleblowing despite being a heavily audit and auditable publicly traded company with thousands of employees.

I know that once you're wired into the hyper-Cliff Clavin universe of "did you know..." it's impossible to see this distinction, but the beyond likely description of events is option 1, option 2 is ludicrous by any reasonable standard of evaluation.

Was part of the plan to basically destroy the Republican party, thus letting the Democratic party rule this country unfettered for a decade or more?

No, you see, we're going to steal the Presidential election in November too. Of course we'll lose another dozen House seats and half dozen Senate seats just to throw the corporate media off our scent.

jerseyhoya wrote:No, you see, we're going to steal the Presidential election in November too. Of course we'll lose another dozen House seats and half dozen Senate seats just to throw the corporate media off our scent.

The corporate media are in on it - what they have to worry about are those pesky bloggers!

The Dude wrote:Listen, some of what you say isn't that far-fetched. But having some credible sources will help. Not just the first link you find, then making everyone look into it. Then, 5 hours later, finding stuff

I watched "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room" tonight. Yeah, bad $#@! is going on, but claiming voting day fraud, making up a percentage, then linking to bushissatam.com don't work

Brilliant brilliant film. In the first cut I saw at Sundance they had Grey Davis claiming that Enron fixed the electric in California so that Arnold would get elected. It was an amazing claim that was not only not supported by the facts presented in the film, but was completely contrary to what the filmmakers proved was the motivation, greed. When I saw it again, that quote was cut out.

Keeping with the theme of Republican conspiracies:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulcGldJlKiA[/youtube]

There is no way this isn't put out by Republicans. He hits on several stereotype that white people have about blacks, but are afraid of admitting. Let's see. Black men are misogynistic. Check. Black men hate white men. Check. Black men are ostentatious when they have wealth. Check. If a Black man becomes President he'll govern only for Blacks. Check. The Republicans are practicing the politics of fear again.

Hersh: US Considered Ways to Provoke War with Iran

Investigative journalist Seymour Hersh has revealed the Bush administration recently held a meeting in Vice President Cheney’s office to discuss ways to provoke a war with Iran. Hersh said it was considered during the meeting to stage an incident where it would appear that Iranian boats had attacked US forces in the Straits of Hormuz.

Seymour Hersh: “There was a dozen ideas proffered how to trigger a war. The one that interested me the most was, why don’t we build—we, in our shipyard—build four or five boats that look like Iranian PT boats, put Navy Seals on them with a lot of arms, and, the next time one of our boats goes through the Straits of Hormuz, start a shoot-up. Might cost some lives. And it was rejected, because you can’t have Americans killing Americans. But that’s the kind of—that’s the level of stuff we are talking about: provocation. But that was rejected.”

Seymour Hersh discussed the report during a recent interview at the Campus Progress journalism conference.


source

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUkiyBVytRQ&feature=related[/youtube]

The victim is still under arrest -- for assaulting a police officer. The cop a former football player.