I turn my head and then Eickhoff? Phillies random thoughts

by **ReadingPhilly** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 17:28:15

Maybe they aren't as fungible as we believe, at least at the elite level. Smart teams certainly aren't thinking that way anymore. I'd definitely trade him for the right return though, as I would almost any player.

by **kruker** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 17:31:28

Look, I get that the good ones are still hard to find, but they still aren't as valuable as everyday players and SPs. He's almost worthless to us for at least 2 years. Why not try to parlay that into a bigger piece? I'm not saying take cents on the dollar for him just that we've got a valuable piece that really doesn't help us all that much.

by **ReadingPhilly** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 17:34:48

I think everyone is in agreement about that.

by **JFLNYC** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 17:54:36

Once we're contenders we can re-sign Papelbon.

by **MoBettle** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 01:19:56

Trading Giles seems like one of those outsmart yourself moves. Would take a lot for it to be ok...

by **iladelph53** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 03:18:33

MoBettle wrote:Trading Giles seems like one of those outsmart yourself moves. Would take a lot for it to be ok...

After what the Padres got for Kimbrell, it would be criminal for Klentak not to do his due diligence in gauging the market.

by **phorever** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 08:49:54

if giles goes, i want the return to be legit upper level infield 2b/3b prospects who can both defend and hit.

all metrics agree that the phils pitchers suffered badly from having one of the league's worst three defenses behind them in 2016. crawford and maybe knapp and hoskins are the only young phils infielders anywhere near the show who can both hit and play defense above average at their current position. ruf, cesar, and franco all got bad defensive grades this season, and galvis managed to bring his defense down towards his offense more than the other way around. even if crawford, knapp, and hoskins all come to the rescue, 2b becomes a huge problem if/when cesar stops hitting, and 3b a big problem if the fielding metrics for franco prove correct. moving alfaro back to his old position is the closest thing to a near-term solution at 3b, and i don't see any plausible alternativesto cesar as 2016-18 2b. sweeney? yuck. mora and blanco can't field. galvis and canelo can't hit. valentine continues his post-acquisition fade. quinn can't stay healthy long enough to convince me that we can get away with moving herrera back to 2b.

by **ReadingPhilly** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 09:29:43

I feel like one a month I write that after watching Franco I find it hard to believe Alfaro would be better than him at third. I don't want to rehash that argument though.

by **phorever** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 09:45:31

ReadingPhilly wrote:I feel like one a month I write that after watching Franco I find it hard to believe Alfaro would be better than him at third. I don't want to rehash that argument though.

i'm willing to believe you, which is why 2b ranks for me as the biggest hole right now. however, even if franco is a great 2016-18 option at 3b, it would be wise to have some more good options in the pipeline. this organization has repeatedly gone decades between having good players at 3b. one more big injury to franco and we're in trouble.

by **PSUPhilliesPhan** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 09:55:13

phorever wrote:if giles goes, i want the return to be legit upper level infield 2b/3b prospects who can both defend and hit.

all metrics agree that the phils pitchers suffered badly from having one of the league's worst three defenses behind them in 2016. crawford and maybe knapp and hoskins are the only young phils infielders anywhere near the show who can both hit and play defense above average at their current position. ruf, cesar, and franco all got bad defensive grades this season, and galvis managed to bring his defense down towards his offense more than the other way around. even if crawford, knapp, and hoskins all come to the rescue, 2b becomes a huge problem if/when cesar stops hitting, and 3b a big problem if the fielding metrics for franco prove correct. moving alfaro back to his old position is the closest thing to a near-term solution at 3b, and i don't see any plausible alternativesto cesar as 2016-18 2b. sweeney? yuck. mora and blanco can't field. galvis and canelo can't hit. valentine continues his post-acquisition fade. quinn can't stay healthy long enough to convince me that we can get away with moving herrera back to 2b.

If it makes you feel any better Scott Kingery is a plus defender at 2B. He'll start the year in Clearwater and hopefully finish in Reading. I wouldn't lose sleep over Mora and Valentine ever being counted on as major league pieces. Nick Williams can play CF is you decide to move Herrera to 2B. This organization has incredible offensive depth now, you're having a conniption about the wrong personal. If you want to worry, I'd focus on starting pitching depth.

by **Grotewold** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 09:56:58

PSUPhilliesPhan wrote:If you want to worry, I'd focus on starting pitching depth.

Phillies Trade Cigar Money for Arms

by **JFLNYC** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:00:18

If you move Herrera to 2b the guy to put in cf imo is Altherr, who may be the best cf on the team right now.

by **PSUPhilliesPhan** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:05:16

JFLNYC wrote:If you move Herrera to 2b the guy to put in cf imo is Altherr, who may be the best cf on the team right now.

Yep, that would work too.

by **Phred** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:34:55

PSUPhilliesPhan wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:If you move Herrera to 2b the guy to put in cf imo is Altherr, who may be the best cf on the team right now.

Yep, that would work too.

Not really sure why they are even hesitating to do this. OFers are a lot easier to find than 2Bmen and we have a few OFers already in the system.

by **PSUPhilliesPhan** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:14:55

Phred wrote:
PSUPhilliesPhan wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:If you move Herrera to 2b the guy to put in cf imo is Altherr, who may be the best cf on the team right now.

Yep, that would work too.

Not really sure why they are even hesitating to do this. OFers are a lot easier to find than 2Bmen and we have a few OFers already in the system.

There's potential Herrera can be an elite defender in CF. Need another year to find out and there's no one pushing him right now.

by **Phred** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:21:45

PSUPhilliesPhan wrote:
Phred wrote:
PSUPhilliesPhan wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:If you move Herrera to 2b the guy to put in cf imo is Altherr, who may be the best cf on the team right now.

Yep, that would work too.

Not really sure why they are even hesitating to do this. OFers are a lot easier to find than 2Bmen and we have a few OFers already in the system.

There's potential Herrera can be an elite defender in CF. Need another year to find out and there's no one pushing him right now.

Is elite in CF and a black hole at 2nd better than really good at both?

by **Grotewold** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:34:59

Herrera played 2B and SS from age 17 to 22. If he's capable of playing 2B at this level, I would think he can re-learn that fairly quickly. So why mess with the good thing of him developing into a lights-out CF

by **Phred** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44:36

Because maybe he can develop into a lights-out 2bman which are a lot harder to find than lights out CFers, 2 of which we may have in the system already.

I get why they put him out there last year. They had to find out if the 2bmen they had could develop but I think that it has been determined that they can't.

I also understand that you may not want to just keep moving Hererra back and forth.

However, I think Herrera at 2b is an idea worth entertaining and the Phils don't seem to agree (from what little I can determine from the non-existent information that I have).

by **Grotewold** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:47:01

Phred wrote:Because maybe he can develop into a lights-out 2bman which are a lot harder to find than lights out CFers, 2 of which we may have in the system already.

But he's currently much more experienced at 2B than CF. The worst scenario would be to play him at 2B in 2016, have it not work out, and he goes back to CF fairly raw in 2017

Also we don't need to worry about any one particular weak spot. The team will have a fortune to spend

by **Phred** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 13:18:46

Grotewold wrote:
Phred wrote:Because maybe he can develop into a lights-out 2bman which are a lot harder to find than lights out CFers, 2 of which we may have in the system already.

But he's currently much more experienced at 2B than CF. The worst scenario would be to play him at 2B in 2016, have it not work out, and he goes back to CF fairly raw in 2017

Also we don't need to worry about any one particular weak spot. The team will have a fortune to spend

Hmmm...really solid points. I'll ponder that.

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