I think Jeff is right that it only makes sense to sign a guy like Byrd to that kind of contract if we're going to go big and try to win. We can realistically only do that if we find some other good players to fill the other spots. Ruiz is maybe defensible in that he'll help sell tickets because the fans like him (and the rest of the core) and I think he'll be as good as the other options sans McCann. And I say that as someone who wanted them to sign chooch.

Anyway, while I do think we'll need our player development to help us out of this mess, it's not the only way. We could find value on the scrap heap as we did with Werth and Victorino. Or we could make a trade that hits big. Add the right complimentary players to one of those options (scrap heap or trade), stay reasonably healthy, and we could be right there. The problem is that I don't see the current leadership finding those scrap heap guys and I'm not sure the league is crazy about dealing his smugness anything that will make him more smug. He was kinda an ass after the whale trades and I don't think other GMs like being shown up. It doesn't get talked about, but I imagine other GMs would play more hardball with Ruben than with most other GMs.

td11 wrote:

sydnor wrote:

td11 wrote:Everything ok buddy? I was just laughing at you telling ppl they don't know much about baseball. Maybe they should try getting banned from message boards so they can have more free time to learn about baseball

Spending lots of posts on message boards is not necessarily a good way to learn more about baseball. I can help you learn a bit more, but you'd have to really commit to it. Typing lol's a lot, reading reddit, and arguing with jerseyhoya/telling phatj his mother's sexist isn't really a good start.

I also post a lot of gifs and butts

you're a hero in my book

4 years for Peralta? That seems all types of stupid.

Monkeyboy wrote:Anyway, while I do think we'll need our player development to help us out of this mess, it's not the only way. We could find value on the scrap heap as we did with Werth and Victorino. Or we could make a trade that hits big. Add the right complimentary players to one of those options (scrap heap or trade), stay reasonably healthy, and we could be right there. The problem is that I don't see the current leadership finding those scrap heap guys and I'm not sure the league is crazy about dealing his smugness anything that will make him more smug. He was kinda an ass after the whale trades and I don't think other GMs like being shown up. It doesn't get talked about, but I imagine other GMs would play more hardball with Ruben than with most other GMs.

If a GM thinks a deal will help his team, he makes it. Other execs may or may not find Amaro obnoxious, but I can't imagine that matters much in negotiation.

Where you're absolutely right is his abject failure in finding near-free talent. I guess Frandsen is in that boat, and that's really about it. You'd think that a "scouting and player development organization" would turn up some of those guys. But all Amaro really knows how to do is spend money.

He spends money poorly at that.

Cost/benefit analysis seems to be completely missing from his equations.

We're done as long as he's around.

The only rational scenario in which moves such as keeping Lee, extending Utley and re-signing Chooch makes sense without then going big this off-season is to keep lipstick on the pig until the TV deal is done. Of course, that assumes rational behavior. It's completely possible Rube has deluded himself into thinking his vets can make another run at a championship. On it's face, though, the whole thing is just insulting. Does he really think that a large portion of fans will just turn out to see the name players even when it's clear how far they (and the team as a whole) have declined? It all seems like more self-delusion.

What bothers me the most is the lack of communication coming from Amaro.

Just admit that they have to begin a serious rebuilding process.

Look to rebuild the team. Continue to develop the minor leaguers. Take the new TV contract money and start using it to get young kids out of the Caribbean, Asia and South America.

Look to move anyone with talent. Yes, that means Lee, Hamels, and Utley. Look for top 3 prospects from other organizations in return.

But we hear none of that. It's just the signing of aging players who've never been stars, at best they've been above average at certain points of their careers.

There's simply nothing enthralling about this team right now. I'd only go to a game to change up my daily routine, there's no one on this team that would cause me to buy a ticket to see them play. Combine that with the floundering communications from this organization, and it's just a very bad place to be...it's the sign of isolation (just listening to themselves) or arrogance (we know better than you) and either way it sucks.

-- Toronto is the latest team trying to trade for Samardzija

-- Miami is interested in Phil Hughes and Dioner Navarro

Molina to the rays for 2/4.5, would you have him over Chooch now Jeff?

You're asking me if the best run organization in baseball's signing of a catcher instead of another catcher signed by one of the worst-run franchises in baseball is making me re-think things?

You wanna sit the next couple of plays out, champ?

sydnor wrote:You're asking me if the best run organization in baseball's signing of a catcher instead of another catcher signed by one of the worst-run franchises in baseball is making me re-think things?

You wanna sit the next couple of plays out, champ?

They gave Jose Molina 2 years 4.5mill and you wanna act like I know fuck-all? You're the one who stated you'd take Molina for 450k over Chooch, well would you for 4.5mill? You who lambasted our signing Juan on a minor league contract, would sign Molina for 4.5mill? Just wondering.

I'm saying I don't much care about Jose Molina. I'm also saying that when the Rays sign him, and their GM is worlds better than ours, it may mean it's a smart deal.

This is a false equivalency though. You don't have to sign Molina or Ruiz.

Worst run organization in MLB beat the best run organization in the WFS. Brian Saben is not a SABRE creative guy. He signed Zito to a bad contract and Aaron freaking Rowand to a huge deal. Two WFCs since 2010.

Meanwhile the Rays have no WFCs. Oakland is another smart team. Gets bounced from the playoffs every year they actually make the playoffs.

I'd rather win the WFC than be creative I believe.

sydnor wrote:I'm saying I don't much care about Jose Molina. I'm also saying that when the Rays sign him, and their GM is worlds better than ours, it may mean it's a smart deal.

This is a false equivalency though. You don't have to sign Molina or Ruiz.

So it's only a smart deal if the Rays does it? What sort of bullshit is this? The Rays don't have a huge payroll, signing what essentially is a warm body who can frame pitches and do nothing else for 4.5 over 2 years is not a smart move. Like you said they did not have to sign Molina, but they did and for 4.5 million over two years, surely a Sabre guy like you would be shitting all over this move, but of course it's the Rays.

I love the turn this thread has taken. Jose Molina is my new favorite Molina brother.

Molina IS a really good pitch framer. He saves his team a lot of runs. He is also real old and a horrible hitter and runner.

Meanwhile, Ruiz rates pretty high in a lot of defensive ratings for catchers. He's excellent at blocking pitches. He is very good at fielding batted balls. He doesn't rate real high in pitch framing. I wonder though. He looks like he steals quite a few strikes to me. (BTW Kratz! Is a superb pitch framer -- both high and low pitches which is kinda kewl for a big guy like him.)

Ruiz has a good reputation for calling a game and handling pitchers. He will probably be a very good influence on whatever young catchers the Phils bring up for the next coupla years. He even runs fairly well.

All of the above things are good ways to look at a catchers value as opposed to drawing conclusions based on 300 PAs or so from a guy having a tough year.

Smitty,
Your post is absurd and can be used to justify any number of bad contracts. His defense on batted balls? Let's say he's the best of all time and someone else is the worst of all time, minimum 10 games played. What's the difference over a season? A run? 3?

You also wrote:

"The thing that's funny about this thread is some of us wouldn't mind having Chooch back on a cheap one year deal. Not sure if that's even realistic. Shore's point regarding Chooch's age is a good one."

So how did you supporting a cheap one year deal evolve to you justifying an expensive three year deal? Had he signed for 5 years 90 million, would you have cited the way he treats the clubhouse attendant? LOL, LMAO, STFU, ETC.

The beard may be headed to the Tigers

sydnor wrote:Smitty,
Your post is absurd and can be used to justify any number of bad contracts. His defense on batted balls? Let's say he's the best of all time and someone else is the worst of all time, minimum 10 games played. What's the difference over a season? A run? 3?

You also wrote:

"The thing that's funny about this thread is some of us wouldn't mind having Chooch back on a cheap one year deal. Not sure if that's even realistic. Shore's point regarding Chooch's age is a good one."

So how did you supporting a cheap one year deal evolve to you justifying an expensive three year deal? Had he signed for 5 years 90 million, would you have cited the way he treats the clubhouse attendant? LOL, LMAO, STFU, ETC.

I'm not justifying a thing. I'll leave that to the creative types. GGSA.

I like reading stuff about catcher defense since it's pretty new and interesting. I like using as much information as possible in order to try to evaluate a player's value. I like looking at a player's career and examining whether or not the guy is unusual in any way.

That's not really creative like looking at a guy's age and his last 300 PAs and coming to a conclusion and stopping there. But it's what I like to do.

I don't know if Chooch is gonna be any good next year or for the next two years after that. No one does. I do know:

Good catchers are rare.

There is a lot more involved in evaluating catcher value than just his hitting.

Chooch has had a very unusual career, not even playing high school baseball and not starting to catch until he was a pro.

He has caught fewer than 1,000 big league games.

He had his best seasons at age 30-33.

He was suspended for Adderall use at the beginning of last season. He had a bad year last season, although he was awesome for a while. He can now use Adderall and not violate MLB policy.

HoJo and Van Slyke are heading to the Mariners to be coaches