SK790 wrote:Poz with a great article on the Phillies decline:

http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2013/0 ... eague.html

Grotewold wrote:Bernadina cleared waivers

slot 'eem in

jcrasnick
Roger Bernadina has cleared waivers. Expects to sign with a new club shortly

TenuredVulture wrote:Obviously, talent is the most important thing. But other stuff matters too. There's enough smoke to reasonably believe the clubhouse is in disarray. It seems some players were taking advantage of Charlie's management style. That's on them though.

Wheels Tupay wrote:Better than Mini Mart!

phdave wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Obviously, talent is the most important thing. But other stuff matters too. There's enough smoke to reasonably believe the clubhouse is in disarray. It seems some players were taking advantage of Charlie's management style. That's on them though.

Can widespread problems with lack of preparation really be on the players? It does not reflect well on them individually for doing that but if the problem is a pattern across the roster then that is a leadership problem.

I'm really shocked at the comments by Doc. I know they are similar to other comments made by Sandberg but I didn't expect one of the vet players to say those things, especially not Doc.

I guess Charlie's style might have worked well under certain circumstances but might have been counter productive under circumstances of declining talent and a recent history of incredible success. Being prepared, putting in extra work, showing up on time...these things are more important when you don't have as much talent. Not that they can ever fully compensate for a lack of talent but things might be much worse than they should be.

Doll Is Mine wrote:

phdave wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Obviously, talent is the most important thing. But other stuff matters too. There's enough smoke to reasonably believe the clubhouse is in disarray. It seems some players were taking advantage of Charlie's management style. That's on them though.

Can widespread problems with lack of preparation really be on the players? It does not reflect well on them individually for doing that but if the problem is a pattern across the roster then that is a leadership problem.

I'm really shocked at the comments by Doc. I know they are similar to other comments made by Sandberg but I didn't expect one of the vet players to say those things, especially not Doc.

I guess Charlie's style might have worked well under certain circumstances but might have been counter productive under circumstances of declining talent and a recent history of incredible success. Being prepared, putting in extra work, showing up on time...these things are more important when you don't have as much talent. Not that they can ever fully compensate for a lack of talent but things might be much worse than they should be.

During the Dodgers series, their color analyst (I believe it was Steve Lyons) claimed that the Phillies clubhouse had many issues, the biggest being Charlie letting guys like Jimmy Rollins getting away with things like being late constantly and not hustling.

Grotewold wrote:Bernadina cleared waivers

slot 'eem in

Shore wrote:

Doll Is Mine wrote:

phdave wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Obviously, talent is the most important thing. But other stuff matters too. There's enough smoke to reasonably believe the clubhouse is in disarray. It seems some players were taking advantage of Charlie's management style. That's on them though.

Can widespread problems with lack of preparation really be on the players? It does not reflect well on them individually for doing that but if the problem is a pattern across the roster then that is a leadership problem.

I'm really shocked at the comments by Doc. I know they are similar to other comments made by Sandberg but I didn't expect one of the vet players to say those things, especially not Doc.

I guess Charlie's style might have worked well under certain circumstances but might have been counter productive under circumstances of declining talent and a recent history of incredible success. Being prepared, putting in extra work, showing up on time...these things are more important when you don't have as much talent. Not that they can ever fully compensate for a lack of talent but things might be much worse than they should be.

During the Dodgers series, their color analyst (I believe it was Steve Lyons) claimed that the Phillies clubhouse had many issues, the biggest being Charlie letting guys like Jimmy Rollins getting away with things like being late constantly and not hustling.

That shit is "colorful" when you're winning, and disarray when you're losing. This is only an issue because of the losing, not the other way around.

phdave wrote:There is a difference between media narratives being developed post hoc to explain winning and losing and the actual behavior. The media are always going to craft some story to explain why a team wins and loses. I assume that when shore says "that shit" he means the crediting of winning and losing to chemistry, work ethic, etc. I tend to dismiss these post hoc explanations. They are just easy ways to frame and dramatize discussions of sports.

On the other hand, I do believe that actual hard work (or lack thereof), actual preparation, actual group dynamics, etc. can affect winning and losing. A direct quote from Doc makes me think that it is not just a post hoc media narrative to explain the losses. But, who knows, he may be doing some similar post hoc rationalization.