Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

by **Shore** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 15:29:10

Doll Is Mine wrote:
phdave wrote:There is a difference between media narratives being developed post hoc to explain winning and losing and the actual behavior. The media are always going to craft some story to explain why a team wins and loses. I assume that when shore says "that shit" he means the crediting of winning and losing to chemistry, work ethic, etc. I tend to dismiss these post hoc explanations. They are just easy ways to frame and dramatize discussions of sports.

On the other hand, I do believe that actual hard work (or lack thereof), actual preparation, actual group dynamics, etc. can affect winning and losing. A direct quote from Doc makes me think that it is not just a post hoc media narrative to explain the losses. But, who knows, he may be doing some similar post hoc rationalization.

Precisely why I think this was something that contributed to the losing. I don't think Doc would have said anything if he didn't think so either.

I love Doc, but even if it IS his opinion, it doesn't make it correct. I mean, he thought he could help the team without a shoulder, and pitched like crap, and hurt the team, repeatedly.

Was Jimmy punctual in 2011? When he wasn't, was he held accountable? Is the implication that Charlies changed positions on this in the last 2 years? Or it didn't matter then but it does now?

by **RichmondPhilsFan** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 16:08:26

Shore wrote:
Doll Is Mine wrote:
phdave wrote:There is a difference between media narratives being developed post hoc to explain winning and losing and the actual behavior. The media are always going to craft some story to explain why a team wins and loses. I assume that when shore says "that #$!&@" he means the crediting of winning and losing to chemistry, work ethic, etc. I tend to dismiss these post hoc explanations. They are just easy ways to frame and dramatize discussions of sports.

On the other hand, I do believe that actual hard work (or lack thereof), actual preparation, actual group dynamics, etc. can affect winning and losing. A direct quote from Doc makes me think that it is not just a post hoc media narrative to explain the losses. But, who knows, he may be doing some similar post hoc rationalization.

Precisely why I think this was something that contributed to the losing. I don't think Doc would have said anything if he didn't think so either.

I love Doc, but even if it IS his opinion, it doesn't make it correct. I mean, he thought he could help the team without a shoulder, and pitched like crap, and hurt the team, repeatedly.

Was Jimmy punctual in 2011? When he wasn't, was he held accountable? Is the implication that Charlies changed positions on this in the last 2 years? Or it didn't matter then but it does now?

That was kinda my thought. I'm pretty sure we had a "Charlie benches Jimmy for missing meetings/not hustling on a popup" incident every year from 2009 forward. Did Charlie suddenly stop caring in 2012-13?

by **Grotewold** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 16:11:48

Zolecki wrote:Doc to pitch Sunday in Reading. Pettibone has soreness in shoulder. Will have MRI tomorrow.

by **Doll Is Mine** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 16:12:32

RichmondPhilsFan wrote:
Shore wrote:
Doll Is Mine wrote:
phdave wrote:There is a difference between media narratives being developed post hoc to explain winning and losing and the actual behavior. The media are always going to craft some story to explain why a team wins and loses. I assume that when shore says "that #$!&@" he means the crediting of winning and losing to chemistry, work ethic, etc. I tend to dismiss these post hoc explanations. They are just easy ways to frame and dramatize discussions of sports.

On the other hand, I do believe that actual hard work (or lack thereof), actual preparation, actual group dynamics, etc. can affect winning and losing. A direct quote from Doc makes me think that it is not just a post hoc media narrative to explain the losses. But, who knows, he may be doing some similar post hoc rationalization.

Precisely why I think this was something that contributed to the losing. I don't think Doc would have said anything if he didn't think so either.

I love Doc, but even if it IS his opinion, it doesn't make it correct. I mean, he thought he could help the team without a shoulder, and pitched like crap, and hurt the team, repeatedly.

Was Jimmy punctual in 2011? When he wasn't, was he held accountable? Is the implication that Charlies changed positions on this in the last 2 years? Or it didn't matter then but it does now?

That was kinda my thought. I'm pretty sure we had a "Charlie benches Jimmy for missing meetings/not hustling on a popup" incident every year from 2009 forward. Did Charlie suddenly stop caring in 2012-13?

You can't deny the fact that Charlie's demeanor changed at some point last season and carried over into this season. You saw it immediately in his interviews during ST. He had a la-li-da attitude anytime someone in the media asked him a question. Whereas in years past, he'd try to rally the fans to get on a player or the team when they weren't playing well. Not so much this year.

by **pacino** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 16:19:52

it's certainly possible he stopped caring about little things. people get settled in after so many years at the same job.

by **RichmondPhilsFan** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 16:26:20

Phils signed Bernadina.

by **TenuredVulture** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 16:29:38

Shore wrote:
Doll Is Mine wrote:
phdave wrote:There is a difference between media narratives being developed post hoc to explain winning and losing and the actual behavior. The media are always going to craft some story to explain why a team wins and loses. I assume that when shore says "that shit" he means the crediting of winning and losing to chemistry, work ethic, etc. I tend to dismiss these post hoc explanations. They are just easy ways to frame and dramatize discussions of sports.

On the other hand, I do believe that actual hard work (or lack thereof), actual preparation, actual group dynamics, etc. can affect winning and losing. A direct quote from Doc makes me think that it is not just a post hoc media narrative to explain the losses. But, who knows, he may be doing some similar post hoc rationalization.

Precisely why I think this was something that contributed to the losing. I don't think Doc would have said anything if he didn't think so either.

I love Doc, but even if it IS his opinion, it doesn't make it correct. I mean, he thought he could help the team without a shoulder, and pitched like crap, and hurt the team, repeatedly.

Was Jimmy punctual in 2011? When he wasn't, was he held accountable? Is the implication that Charlies changed positions on this in the last 2 years? Or it didn't matter then but it does now?

This is all speculation. I think the focus on Rollins is a mistake. Charlie is a player's manager. That works when players are willing to be responsible to themselves. When Rollins tested the limits, presumably Charlie did something about it, but overall the team did what they needed to do. For whatever reason, it may be the case that the players weren't doing what they were supposed to do this year. I think the fact that there were numerous locker room meetings this year is evidence that there was something awry in the clubhouse. I think Charlie's approach was that it was up to the players to solve the problems.

by **phdave** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 16:37:26

Rollins was benched/reprimanded a few times by Charlie including multiple times last year. Rollins was also benched in 2008 when they were in first place.

But the quotes about this year sound like the problem was more widespread than just Rollins. Maybe he was making an example out of Rollins in the past and that stopped working. Maybe back then Rollins was the only one doing it so it was easy to bench one guy but now a bunch of guys started doing it and you can't just bench all of them.

Last year after benching Rollins Manuel said that he has two rules, be on time and hustle. Given that, it is a bit jarring reading quotes that the team as a whole was not hustling and showing up on time. It could all just be excuses for not winning and blaming Manuel. It is impossible to know for sure. Losing can also lead to players not giving their all, especially if they were hustling and preparing and still losing.

by **smitty** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 16:41:30

Managers have a pretty big effect on team performance in my view. For quite a while, Manuel was a very effective manager for this club. I think those days are long gone. It's a pretty common thing in baseball. Managers lose their effectiveness after a while. If Sandberg's style is very different from Manuel's -- and it seems that is so -- that is often a good thing.

by **BigEd76** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 16:53:55

Shoulder soreness for Pettibone. Looks like moar Cloyd on Sunday

by **laf837** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 17:14:07

Whatever the case it certainly manifested itself on the field. The team was often sloppy and rarely ever sharp.

by **smitty** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 17:15:05

Oh wow. Another A's catcher hurt. We should trade Ruiz to them for some big corn fed hard throwing reliefers who know where the plate is.

by **phdave** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 17:21:25

Is there a list somewhere of Phillies players who cleared waivers? I've heard a few names but don't know if there is a full accounting or not.

by **phdave** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 17:39:09

Over the past two years, the Phillies have a .406 winning % with Ryan Howard on the DL and a .524 winning % when he has been off the DL.

Discuss.

by **smitty** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 18:01:02

Every team needs an RBI man.

by **Napalm** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 18:20:11

phdave wrote:Over the past two years, the Phillies have a .406 winning % with Ryan Howard on the DL and a .524 winning % when he has been off the DL.

Discuss.

$25 mil of player salary is tied up on the DL

by **RichmondPhilsFan** » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:03:51

phdave wrote:Over the past two years, the Phillies have a .406 winning % with Ryan Howard on the DL and a .524 winning % when he has been off the DL.

Discuss.

As bad as Howard has been, the bench is even worse. And as bad as Howard has been against lefties, he's still an asset against RHP, especially with runners on base (thereby negating the shift).

Pretty short discussion, imo.

by **pacino** » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:08:00

CHASE UTLEY IS A PHILLIES!!!!

by **JFLNYC** » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:12:12

Hard to believe we have trouble winning with Michael ("Why Am I Still in Philly?") Young at 1B.

by **Squire** » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:16:06

I hate to have a loser's mentality but seeing how the bonus pools at the top of the draft work and the leverage they give those teams, I'm not sure I wouldn't really appreciate rocketing to the top of next years draft. Asche is struggling but he always is slow when he jumps levels. I still want them to sign MAG. I fully supported the Utley extension.

Archived

Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick

Re: Random Phillies Thoughts and Tired Schtick