Trent Steele wrote:I'm basically despondent.

This was me in March. I could see this train coming. Made up my mind to be hopeful heading into the season, but now I'm close to feeling like I did in March.

There's no way Amaro doesn't get the chance to rebuild. He's been there forever and they will make the argument that he did all he could to make the team better 2009-2013, but bad luck, injuries, and old age won out -- so he deserves his chance to build a team from scratch. If I didn't think he sucks, I could even buy that type of argument for the right guy. But he's not that guy.

The question, though, is does Amaro actually rebuild? Does he have the balls to move Howard and a lot of money to get a decent return?

AllPhillyFan wrote:Here's my opinion on Utley that I don't think many people have mentioned. He plays 2B, which is a position that does not really have a great amount of talent in the majors. Yes we could put Galvis there, but he is a completely different player, Galvis seems more fit to replace Rollins than Utley.

FWIW, Hernandez looks great at Lehigh. But Utley remains the heart and soul of the team as well as its most dynamic hitter

ek wrote:he did have a bad series vs fla though. knocked avg down to .263 and his OPS is around .800 now which is still good

Yeah. Looked like they were pounding him away and he didn't react well to it. And/or is hitting a lull

The reasons to trade Utley are twofold: (1) You're trying to get value in exchange to help you build for a better future; and (2) Without meaning to sound cold, he's nearing the end of his useful life. If you're not going to contend for the next couple of years, why would you keep an expensive veteran -- especially one who has missed significant time in recent years with a degenerative condition in both knees -- who is likely to be gone before you contend again? What's the point? To win a few more games in 2014-2015?

Utley is human and is in his-mid 30's with a degenerative condition in both knees. Given his condition, his play this year has been borderline miraculous. To expect that level of play to continue indefinitely (or at least until the Phillies contend again) is, IMO, an unrealistic expectation. There's no question that a Freddy Galvis or a Cesar Hernandez is extremely unlikely to come close to Utley's offensive production. But if, before we look to replace Utley, we intend to wait until we find a 2B of MVP caliber who is the greatest Phillies 2B of all time, I'm afraid we've got a very, very long wait ahead of us.

The longer we wait before starting the process of replacing the wonderful core that has carried the team for so long, the longer it will take until the process is complete.

ek wrote:he did have a bad series vs fla though. knocked avg down to .263 and his OPS is around .800 now which is still good

Let me ask you a question: Given this little slump and his history, would it shock anyone if we were to find out that Utley's knees are bothering him again?

here are the reasons to keep utley:

1. hes been a franchise icon for the last 10 years and puts fans in the seats
2. even if we wont contend, hes a leader and someone that younger players look up to, and if the goal is to bring in young players, having that presence will help
3. hes not going to command $15m per year in his next deal
4. we have no need to slash payroll completely, we'll still have to spend money on something

utley is our version of jeter. he should not be playing for another team at any point. if some team makes us a stupid offer, then okay, but no one is going to give us a top 10 overall prospect for a few months of utley. and if they do, he should still sign here again this winter.

2 quick things to attempt to cheer everyone up this morning............

1. Buzz Bissinger has finally snapped and officially become a complete laughing stock.

http://deadspin.com/buzz-bissinger-admi ... -459022230


2. I spoke with someone who I would describe as "extremely close to John Middleton" in the past few days. Fox Sports has already informed the Phillies they will be "breaking the bank" to secure the next TV contract in the next couple of years. They've promised them their offer will be ultra aggressive and top anything that has been done in MLB to date. Look for Middleton to try to parlay this influx of cash into buying the team outright from the other owners.

Weird about Buzz. He used to bring a dog of his into my fiancées previous place of employment

Brantt wrote:

2. I spoke with someone who I would describe as "extremely close to John Middleton" in the past few days. Fox Sports has already informed the Phillies they will be "breaking the bank" to secure the next TV contract in the next couple of years. They've promised them their offer will be ultra aggressive and top anything that has been done in MLB to date. Look for Middleton to try to parlay this influx of cash into buying the team outright from the other owners.

that would be amazing

I wouldn't call Patellofemoral syndrome a degenerative knee condition. I had it in both my knees and my right one still has issues at times (not very often though) but my left one I haven't had pain in for years.

FTN wrote:here are the reasons to keep utley:

1. hes been a franchise icon for the last 10 years and puts fans in the seats
2. even if we wont contend, hes a leader and someone that younger players look up to, and if the goal is to bring in young players, having that presence will help
3. hes not going to command $15m per year in his next deal
4. we have no need to slash payroll completely, we'll still have to spend money on something

utley is our version of jeter. he should not be playing for another team at any point. if some team makes us a stupid offer, then okay, but no one is going to give us a top 10 overall prospect for a few months of utley. and if they do, he should still sign here again this winter.

good post on the current situation that also serves to clarify how intangibles matter in contractual matters, rather than actual on-field play

bleh wrote:

usctrojans31 wrote:Bleh, the biggest problem with Amaro is that it cost us Arbuckle. How are the Royals doing with drafting and developing?

They have a lot more players, but they also had a bunch of early first round picks.


Actually a big reason for the crappy drafts is Amaro not putting enough money towards bonuses. That was what Chuck Lamar resigned over:

"Then he dropped the hammer . . . Chuck said, 'I expect to lose top prospects the way the big club is structured right now. That's my job. Develop 'em and wave 'em goodbye. But we have been shot at and hit two straight years. It's also my job to see we draft and sign players who can sustain us at the high level we've been at during this great run. But the well is dry, gentlemen. My bonus budget this year was just $5 million. We can't compete with aggressive clubs that are spending three times that. We failed to sign a number of late-round picks with college commitments because we could not pay enough over slot. We're not even competing with the Pirates or Nationals, and in a few years the talent coming into our division is going to bite us in the butt . . . '

http://articles.philly.com/2011-09-09/s ... -prospects

If Utley signs for 2 years at $14-$15 M total with a vesting third year option, he's worth it. The question is, what type of discount is he willing to take to stay here. Even over his last two injury riddled years, he's still put up more than 3 WAR per year, and he's on track to do that again. If we assume that a win is worth between $3M-$5M, Utley more than makes up for the potential reduced salary. Then, include what FTN said about him putting asses in seats and shirts on backs. The value of continuity and stability cannot always be stated in dollars and cents.

I've never once heard Utley booed; have you? Rollins and Howard are not the faces that Utley is, and they do not have the fans' love the way that Utley does.

Utley is not going to continue to put people in seats if they continue to suck.

Amaro would also take a lot of heat for trading Utley. I don't think he'd do it. The only way it happens is if Utley doesn't want to stay here, which isn't impossible.

bleh wrote:Amaro would also take a lot of heat for trading Utley. I don't think he'd do it. The only way it happens is if Utley doesn't want to stay here, which isn't impossible.

On the plus side, people would likely firebomb Amaro's home, so he'd be gone.

This is going to be a very difficult task for Amaro. They need to maintain fan interest while simultaneously trying to get younger and do a rebuild in a very weak FA class with two of the best players unlikely to leave current teams in Cano and Elsbury. Without obvious internal options offensively. They have a few tradeable assets that could net you a couple B/B+ prospects but would also mean possibly sending popular/identifiable players like Utley, Rollins, Lee and Paplebon. How should they go about this?

laf837 wrote:This is going to be a very difficult task for Amaro. They need to maintain fan interest while simultaneously trying to get younger and do a rebuild in a very weak FA class with two of the best players unlikely to leave current teams in Cano and Elsbury. Without obvious internal options offensively. They have a few tradeable assets that could net you a couple B/B+ prospects but would also mean possibly sending popular/identifiable players like Utley, Rollins, Lee and Paplebon. How should they go about this?

If you can get rid of Lee's and Papelbon's contract that would be a great start. Another player I would put out on the market, though you won't get a lot for him, is Adams.

do we really trust Ruben Amaro to make the team younger, AND reap maximum value from trades?

That areas seems to where his weaknesses perfectly overlap