"Still have our 1st-rd pick!" & other random Phils thoughts

by **smitty** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 22:37:05

1915 wasn't a fluke by cracky.

by **Grotewold** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:04:46

by **Ace Rothstein** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:10:40

Chuck looking for BATTS everywhere

by **karn** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:16:35

is jerry the king lawler already back at the broadcast table

by **Soren** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:18:14

You can believe whatever the fuck you want but Rollins, Utley, Howard and Burrell all ascending through the system at the same time is a ridiculous bit of good fortune.

by **phillychuck** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:19:38

Soren wrote:You can believe whatever the #$!&@ you want but Rollins, Utley, Howard and Burrell all ascending through the system at the same time is a ridiculous bit of good fortune.

Plus Ruiz, Hamels, and Madson.

by **karn** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:23:09

i remember we used to have a pitcher named randy wolf

by **Barry Jive** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:24:49

Soren wrote:You can believe whatever the fuck you want but Rollins, Utley, Howard and Burrell all ascending through the system at the same time is a ridiculous bit of good fortune.

Does this "good fortune" have anything to do with the fact that the team was absolute garbage from 1994 to 2002?

by **dajafi** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:33:27

Barry Jive wrote:
Soren wrote:You can believe whatever the #$!&@ you want but Rollins, Utley, Howard and Burrell all ascending through the system at the same time is a ridiculous bit of good fortune.

Does this "good fortune" have anything to do with the fact that the team was absolute garbage from 1994 to 2002?

They were really only horrible in 1996, 1997 and 2000. The highest two picks were Burrell and Floyd, who were maybe something like the fifth and eighth best pros their drafts produced between 1996 and 2002.

This wasn't like the Nats where they had #1 picks with superstar talent to pluck in straight years, with the odd Zimmerman/n thrown in too. They were some combo of wildly lucky and excellent in terms of coaching/player development to get what they got from all those guys, particularly Utley, Howard and Hamels.

by **Barry Jive** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:42:28

I just picked a stretch of seasons in which one (2001) resulted in a better record than this past year's. The #16 they have this year is their highest draft pick since Floyd. It's not like it doesn't help that they were consistently able to get guys like Burrell, Myers, Floyd, Hamels and Utley, none of whom would have been possible if they'd done as well as they did this year much less any of the past seven years. And there's a cumulative effect over the rest of the draft thereafter, minute as it may be.

by **smitty** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:46:01

WTF are you guys talking about? Luck? Fluke? Good Fortune?

We're talking about the cottam PHILLIES here. Luck and good fortune has NEVER been part of their history.

This club in the 2000s was put together through drafting and developing talent and signing helpful free agents, making some good trades and getting some help from dumpster diving. The owners put money into the team and the club was bold and fairly smart about building a powerhouse team.

Attributing everything to luck and flukiness is just silly. Like I said before, if you want to go that,route than we can just attribute EVERYTHING to luck and flukiness. The Yankees have been a 90 year fluke. The UCLA college basketball dynasty and the old Celtics and the Packers
in the sixties and the Steelers in the 70s were just flukes. The Roman Empire? Luck.

Come on. Give credit where credit is due and enjoy the greatest Phillies team ever.

My Mariners had Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin-Soo Choo and Raphael Soriano and Brandon Morrow and Cliff Lee and they gave them all away. They gave away a bunch of other valuable players I can't think of right now. They signed Chone Figgens and Carlos Silva and other crap free agents. They have had some real high draft picks and selected guys like Jeff Clements and Phillippe Aumont.

There are teams that are well run and teams that aren't. The Phillies have been run very well for a while now. Let's not down play what they have accomplished. We Philadelphia fans don't get to enjoy badass teams very often. Disregarding what this team has done and writing it off as flukey luck is nutso in my view.

by **The Dude** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:48:46

Go Phils

by **dajafi** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 23:51:20

Barry Jive wrote:I just picked a stretch of seasons in which one (2001) resulted in a better record than this past year's. The #16 they have this year is their highest draft pick since Floyd. It's not like it doesn't help that they were consistently able to get guys like Burrell, Myers, Floyd, Hamels and Utley, none of whom would have been possible if they'd done as well as they did this year much less any of the past seven years. And there's a cumulative effect over the rest of the draft thereafter, minute as it may be.

For sure. But they were even more awful from '88 through '92, and got exactly one player of real value from all those high draft picks (Lieberthal). The Pirates have had a shit ton of high picks the last two decades with almost nothing to show. The Royals have done the draft part well, at least recently, but screwed up the rest of it. At some point, some credit is due.

by **Stripes** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 00:07:19

Warszawa wrote:
JFLNYC wrote:Last year Ty Wigginton had a higher OPS+, wOBA, wRC+, WAR and SLG than Michael Young. Wigginton was a butcher at 3B, but Young was not much better.

We can't keep basing our whole evaluation of Michael Young on one season.

by **SK790** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 00:16:09

Soren wrote:You can believe whatever the fuck you want but Rollins, Utley, Howard and Burrell all ascending through the system at the same time is a ridiculous bit of good fortune.

This kind of stuff never happened for other teams who won the World Series. I mean, come on, man. Look at the current Giants team. You're telling me the same thing didn't happen with them? Lincecum, Sandoval, Posey, Cain, Bumgarner all coming up/entering their primes at the same time. Getting lucky as hell on Vogelsong and Huff. Fucking ELFTARD carried them through the 2010 postseason.

Every team that wins gets lucky on some things.

by **td11** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 00:17:54

motherfucking juan uribe

by **phdave** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 00:26:54

Sometimes a bunch of good young talent comes along at the same time and the franchise can't pay for any other good players and the team sucks and they can't afford to keep the young talent so they trade them away and start over.

by **JFLNYC** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 00:27:17

I don't recall Soren suggesting that other teams weren't lucky, too, merely that during this run the Phils have had a healthy share of good fortune in their development of elite players. I can't quite understand why this is such a contentious issue. The team was very, very good and deserving of the success it's had. That fact that the Phils were able to assemble such an elite core was the consequence of good drafting and good fortune in the development of several of those players within a short window.

by **smitty** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 00:27:33

Mariners had Griffey Jr.; ARod and Edgar all peak at the same time plus Randy Johnson and Jay Buhner and they didn't do doodly except win a couple of playoff series.

The Reds had Jay Bruce and Votto and Cueto all blossom together and haven't won a playoff series.

The Royals have a ton of great young talent and haven't translated it to winning anything yet.

There is an element of luck in baseball but I'd rather have a team that has some talent at putting together a winner than just being lucky. and that's what we have had.

by **joe table** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 00:31:05

JFLNYC wrote:I don't recall Soren suggesting that other teams weren't lucky, too, merely that during this run the Phils have had a healthy share of good fortune in their development of elite players. I can't quite understand why this is such a contentious issue. The team was very, very good and deserving of the success it's had. That fact that the Phils were able to assemble such an elite core was the consequence of good drafting and good fortune in the development of several of those players within a short window.

Don't really understand how the point is being framed

1) Is it that they were lucky during the 2008 run itself? Obviously, yes, at certain times. Or,

2) That they were lucky that they made several voluntary decisions on draft picks that ended up forming the core of a championship team? Not sure how fantastic or non-self-evident this point is

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"Still have our 1st-rd pick!" & other random Phils thoughts

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