if i were amaro, donald is my starting third baseman next season

ReadingPhilly wrote:if i were amaro, donald is my starting third baseman next season

Exactly. Donald is a free upgrade at 3B. Trading him and other valuable chips for a potential upgrade in LF doesn't strike me as a good use of resources.

And 2010 is important, too.

i think the problem with pushing Donald to 3b is that his value to other teams as a middle infielder is higher than it is to the Phillies as a 3b. they could put him there, but they could get more value if they trade him.

Barry Jive wrote:i think the problem with pushing Donald to 3b is that his value to other teams as a middle infielder is higher than it is to the Phillies as a 3b. they could put him there, but they could get more value if they trade him.

Fair point.

OK, is there a team with a pretty good corner OF prospect who's blocked, that could use an advance IF prospect? I'd rather do that than spend multiple prospects AND money on Holliday.

I'd love to see Holliday in LF for the Phils next year, but I don't see how the teams match up as well as some are suggesting. I doubt the Rockies would be interested in Marson since they've got Ianetta. In the middle IF, they've made a big commitment to Tulowitzki at SS and it's no sure thing that Donald would be a major upgrade over Baker at 2B. Also, if you're only sure of having Holliday for one year, it makes no sense at all to trade Victorino or Madson for him since you're gearing up for 2009, not thinking of 2010.

If Amaro can get him for Carrasco, Happ and Golson, I'll be impressed.

to me donald and marson are two upgrades to the lineup who are cost controlled for a few years. holliday is likely one and done here. while it would probably be a good one year, i'm not willing to give up either of the position players for him.

ReadingPhilly wrote:to me donald and marson are two upgrades to the lineup who are cost controlled for a few years. holliday is likely one and done here. while it would probably be a good one year, i'm not willing to give up either of the position players for him.

Why? So you can build a world championship team a few years down the road? You've got one now. Marson's not going to be included in the deal and I doubt Donald will, so it's pretty academic. But neither is a franchise player. You've got a core now of Utley, Rollins, Howard and Hamels, plus you've got Lidge in his prime, Myers and Madson for at least another year. Werth and Victorino are getting closer to free agency. It's unlikely you're going to put together a core like that again for awhile. To fail to continue to leverage that kind of talent is a waste. You may as well just start rebuilding.

You're coming off a world championship with your core in place. You've got a chance to get an MVP-caliber player to add to that world championship team and you wouldn't give up one or two guys who project to be good, but not great players? You'd miss the chance to repeat so you can hold onto one or two non-franchise players? I don't get that at all.

ReadingPhilly wrote:to me donald and marson are two upgrades to the lineup who are cost controlled for a few years. holliday is likely one and done here. while it would probably be a good one year, i'm not willing to give up either of the position players for him.

i'd add michael taylor and dominic brown's names to that statement.

i think there's just way too much potential to look foolish by dealing either of them.

steagles wrote:

ReadingPhilly wrote:to me donald and marson are two upgrades to the lineup who are cost controlled for a few years. holliday is likely one and done here. while it would probably be a good one year, i'm not willing to give up either of the position players for him.

i'd add michael taylor and dominic brown's names to that statement.

i think there's just way too much potential to look foolish by dealing either of them.

When Kevin Mench and Greg Dobbs are platooning in left field next year, that won't look foolish at all.

JFLNYC wrote:

ReadingPhilly wrote:to me donald and marson are two upgrades to the lineup who are cost controlled for a few years. holliday is likely one and done here. while it would probably be a good one year, i'm not willing to give up either of the position players for him.

Why? So you can build a world championship team a few years down the road? You've got one now. Marson's not going to be included in the deal and I doubt Donald will, so it's pretty academic. But neither is a franchise player. You've got a core now of Utley, Rollins, Howard and Hamels, plus you've got Lidge in his prime, Myers and Madson for at least another year. Werth and Victorino are getting closer to free agency. It's unlikely you're going to put together a core like that again for awhile. To fail to continue to leverage that kind of talent is a waste. You may as well just start rebuilding.

You're coming off a world championship with your core in place. You've got a chance to get an MVP-caliber player to add to that world championship team and you wouldn't give up one or two guys who project to be good, but not great players? You'd miss the chance to repeat so you can hold onto one or two non-franchise players? I don't get that at all.

We just disagree about the direction the team should take. In my mind, we won the World Series, so now I want to be a contender every year. The more times we make the playoffs, the better chance we have at winning another one.

I like Holliday and wouldn't mind seeing him in a Phils uniform. Like you said, it wouldn't include Marson and maybe not Donald, so this argument could be pointless. However, I see no reason that Marson and Donald couldn't be considered part of the core in the near future. Rollins is here for three more years, Utley long-term, Lidge for three more years and, likely, Hamels long-term. I don't see Howard starting the '10 season in Philadelphia and I'm not sure Myers is back either. If you trade Howard, you'll likely see another piece added to the core. This team has a chance to be successful for the long-term and, to me, that doesn't include trading for Holliday.

I'm a big proponent of the farm system and building from within. I can see why others are willing to sacrafice that for an impact player, but I don't agree with it.

jerseyhoya wrote:

steagles wrote:

ReadingPhilly wrote:to me donald and marson are two upgrades to the lineup who are cost controlled for a few years. holliday is likely one and done here. while it would probably be a good one year, i'm not willing to give up either of the position players for him.

i'd add michael taylor and dominic brown's names to that statement.

i think there's just way too much potential to look foolish by dealing either of them.

When Kevin Mench and Greg Dobbs are platooning in left field next year, that won't look foolish at all.

Agreed. I think the team will look a lot more foolish if they waste the prime years of Utley, Howard, Rollins, Hamels, etc., because they try to convince themselves that Jerry Hairston or Coco Crisp can replace Burrell's production. It will be an insult to the fans if they come off a world championship without adequately replacing Burrell. And to do so because they insisted on hanging on to an A-Ball OF who might never even sniff the majors would be tragic.

This conversation makes me want to committ seppuku in my family room.

You guys are starting to convince me. I still sort of hate the idea of trading Carrasco, but him plus two lesser pieces (Kendrick and Golson) for Holliday and, essentially, two choice picks in the 2010 draft, isn't too bad.

JFLNYC wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:

steagles wrote:

ReadingPhilly wrote:to me donald and marson are two upgrades to the lineup who are cost controlled for a few years. holliday is likely one and done here. while it would probably be a good one year, i'm not willing to give up either of the position players for him.

i'd add michael taylor and dominic brown's names to that statement.

i think there's just way too much potential to look foolish by dealing either of them.

When Kevin Mench and Greg Dobbs are platooning in left field next year, that won't look foolish at all.

Agreed. I think the team will look a lot more foolish if they waste the prime years of Utley, Howard, Rollins, Hamels, etc., because they try to convince themselves that Jerry Hairston or Coco Crisp can replace Burrell's production. It will be an insult to the fans if they come off a world championship without adequately replacing Burrell. And to do so because they insisted on hanging on to an A-Ball OF who might never even sniff the majors would be tragic.

It's up to Amaro to get creative. If they don't get Holliday it doesn't mean they need to start the season with Dobbs/Mench. The team has the potential to be damn good not only next year, but in 2010 and well beyond. I don't want to lose focus on that by going for it all in 2009.

I appreciate your POV, RP. But a good farm system serves two purposes: The obvious purpose of supplying good, cheap talent to the big-league club, but also the purpose of supplying tradeable assets to win championships. I think it's a fair guess that the Phils don't win the WS without Blanton. Cardenas and Outman may turn out to be pretty darn good major leaguers. But I wouldn't undo that trade now if it meant giving back the rings. If you horde your minor leaguers too much, you end up never getting over the top.

JFLNYC wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:

steagles wrote:

ReadingPhilly wrote:to me donald and marson are two upgrades to the lineup who are cost controlled for a few years. holliday is likely one and done here. while it would probably be a good one year, i'm not willing to give up either of the position players for him.

i'd add michael taylor and dominic brown's names to that statement.

i think there's just way too much potential to look foolish by dealing either of them.

When Kevin Mench and Greg Dobbs are platooning in left field next year, that won't look foolish at all.

Agreed. I think the team will look a lot more foolish if they waste the prime years of Utley, Howard, Rollins, Hamels, etc., because they try to convince themselves that Jerry Hairston or Coco Crisp can replace Burrell's production. It will be an insult to the fans if they come off a world championship without adequately replacing Burrell. And to do so because they insisted on hanging on to an A-Ball OF who might never even sniff the majors would be tragic.

ryan howard was a prospect once.

i think dominic brown has carlos beltran upside. i think he's already jumped the first two hurdles down that road. he can hit .300, and he can draw a walk. that's more than delmon young can say, and it's more than cameron maybin can say. both were top 5 prospects.

if michael taylor can repeat the success he had in A ball last year, this year, in AA, he'll be in philadelphia, starting in LF, by june.

yes, i think it would be a mistake to trade either of those players. jason donald? lou marson? i don't much mind trading either, especially not in the right deal, but taylor and brown are two names you don't want to lose.

Everyone should keep in mind that Colorado doesn't have a ton of leverage when it comes to Holliday because he is gone after next season one way or the other.

I wouldn't be shocked if we could get him for a Carrasco, Kendrick/Happ, and Golson kind of deal. I think the Rockies want to get something done fairly quickly so they can deal with the fallout from losing Holliday while people are somewhat distracted by the Broncos' issues and the beginning of the Avs and Nuggets seasons. If they wait until closer to the season (or during the season), they'll take a bigger beating than if they deal him now (for what is perceived as young talent).

Now if there is another team out there willing to give them the moon for one year of Holliday, who knows. The Cardinals are supposedly in the mix, but are lacking the pitching that the Rockies want for Holliday.

From the Rocky Mountain News...

Cardinals targeting Rockies' Holliday

They made it known that, in return for Holliday and Atkins, they want a rotation-ready pitcher; bullpen help, especially a left-hander; and a right-handed-hitting left fielder to pair with left-handed Seth Smith.

They could probably find a right-handed outfield bat in a trade for Atkins. And since they seem intent on trading Tavares, they'll be in need for a CF, which adding Golson could possibly address.

Mountainphan wrote:Everyone should keep in mind that Colorado doesn't have a ton of leverage when it comes to Holliday because he is gone after next season one way or the other.

I wouldn't be shocked if we could get him for a Carrasco, Kendrick/Happ, and Golson kind of deal. I think the Rockies want to get something done fairly quickly so they can deal with the fallout from losing Holliday while people are somewhat distracted by the Broncos' issues and the beginning of the Avs and Nuggets seasons. If they wait until closer to the season (or during the season), they'll take a bigger beating than if they deal him now (for what is perceived as young talent).

Now if there is another team out there willing to give them the moon for one year of Holliday, who knows. The Cardinals are supposedly in the mix, but are lacking the pitching that the Rockies want for Holliday.

From the Rocky Mountain News...

Cardinals targeting Rockies' Holliday

They made it known that, in return for Holliday and Atkins, they want a rotation-ready pitcher; bullpen help, especially a left-hander; and a right-handed-hitting left fielder to pair with left-handed Seth Smith.

They could probably find a right-handed outfield bat in a trade for Atkins. And since they seem intent on trading Tavares, they'll be in need for a CF, which adding Golson could possibly address.

That certainly sounds like Happ, Carrasco, and Golson. Which I would do.

someone wake amaro up from his nap