by dajafi » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:02:25
Grotewold wrote:I think it's past the point of no return for not trading him, and that our players would be really disappointed at this point if we don't him.
by Trent Steele » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:08:45
going over to Fairway on west side for groceries now.
by traderdave » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:22:19
dajafi wrote:traderdave wrote:... then Toronto has their choice of either Drabek and Taylor or Happ and Brown.
My problem here is that Door #1 >>> Door #2. Drabek looks for all the world like a #1/#2, while Happ is probably a #4, maybe a #3 if the K rate ticks back up. Whereas the difference between Brown and Taylor might be that one guy plays in five all-star games and the other guy "only" plays in two.
If it's Drabek and Taylor as the centerpieces of the deal, Donald and someone like Flande should be the best of the surrounding bits.
by Trent Steele » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:24:42
traderdave wrote:dajafi wrote:traderdave wrote:... then Toronto has their choice of either Drabek and Taylor or Happ and Brown.
My problem here is that Door #1 >>> Door #2. Drabek looks for all the world like a #1/#2, while Happ is probably a #4, maybe a #3 if the K rate ticks back up. Whereas the difference between Brown and Taylor might be that one guy plays in five all-star games and the other guy "only" plays in two.
If it's Drabek and Taylor as the centerpieces of the deal, Donald and someone like Flande should be the best of the surrounding bits.
I think we are on the same page; I have thought from the beginning (as I think we all have) that Drabek has to be in any deal for Halladay. The bottom line, though, is that Toronto cannot have Drabek AND Happ and if they take Drabek they have to "settle" for Taylor. Something like Drabek/Taylor/Donald and insert Carrasco/Flande-type guy here seems infinitely fair to both sides, IMHO.
Maybe go back to them with KD/MT/JD and then let them ask to add CC or JF so it looks like they are getting what they want when in reality we would've been willing to include them from jump.
by Squire » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:30:34
by Squire » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:31:15
Trent Steele wrote:
I would much much much rather give them Drabek and Happ than Drabek and Taylor. Not even close imo, and, oddly, it appears that Toronto agrees, which should make this all the easier if the Phillies are thinking about it correctly.
by traderdave » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:32:29
Trent Steele wrote:traderdave wrote:dajafi wrote:traderdave wrote:... then Toronto has their choice of either Drabek and Taylor or Happ and Brown.
My problem here is that Door #1 >>> Door #2. Drabek looks for all the world like a #1/#2, while Happ is probably a #4, maybe a #3 if the K rate ticks back up. Whereas the difference between Brown and Taylor might be that one guy plays in five all-star games and the other guy "only" plays in two.
If it's Drabek and Taylor as the centerpieces of the deal, Donald and someone like Flande should be the best of the surrounding bits.
I think we are on the same page; I have thought from the beginning (as I think we all have) that Drabek has to be in any deal for Halladay. The bottom line, though, is that Toronto cannot have Drabek AND Happ and if they take Drabek they have to "settle" for Taylor. Something like Drabek/Taylor/Donald and insert Carrasco/Flande-type guy here seems infinitely fair to both sides, IMHO.
Maybe go back to them with KD/MT/JD and then let them ask to add CC or JF so it looks like they are getting what they want when in reality we would've been willing to include them from jump.
I would much much much rather give them Drabek and Happ than Drabek and Taylor. Not even close imo, and, oddly, it appears that Toronto agrees, which should make this all the easier if the Phillies are thinking about it correctly.
by SideshowBob » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:32:30
Trent Steele wrote:I would much much much rather give them Drabek and Happ than Drabek and Taylor. Not even close imo, and, oddly, it appears that Toronto agrees, which should make this all the easier if the Phillies are thinking about it correctly.
by dajafi » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:34:23
Squire wrote:Trent Steele wrote:
I would much much much rather give them Drabek and Happ than Drabek and Taylor. Not even close imo, and, oddly, it appears that Toronto agrees, which should make this all the easier if the Phillies are thinking about it correctly.
I also agree with this.
by CalvinBall » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:37:36
by TenuredVulture » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:39:07
by Trent Steele » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:40:32
Squire wrote:Drabek, Happ, Donald and d'Arnaud. Krikeys - why doesn't that work?
SQUIRE
by karn » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:40:36
by Trent Steele » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:41:41
CalvinBall wrote:Could the problem be that the Phillies don't feel like they have anyone else in the system other than Happ and Drabek that are or can be effective in the ML? There are some other guys like Knapp but they are a long ways away from being ready.
by FTN » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:44:16
A disgruntled Jays ex-employee, now with another American League club, pointed out an ironic symmetry to the Halladay trade talks with the Phillies.
"Remember, at the general manager's first press conference? He said how high school pitchers were risky draft picks." the scout said of J.P. Ricciardi. "Now, the GM is trading his best pitcher -- a high school draft in Halladay. And he wants Drabek, a (former) high school pitcher, and Brown, a projected tools-type outfielder, who also was a high school draft pick.
"It's like they are trying to trade for a Mark Whiten, a Glenallen Hill, a Shannon Stewart, guys we used to pick regularly in the draft, but this GM never drafted. The Phillies probably know Halladay better than the Jays."
Well, we don't know about that. Pat Gillick is a senior adviser to the Phillies, the same position he held in 1995 when Bob Engle and Bus Campbell made Halladay the Jays' first-round pick, under then GM Gord Ash.
"Well, they have a bunch of former Jays scouts in Gordon Lakey, Billy Moore, Joey Davis, Demetrius Pittman and Chip Lawrence, who probably know Halladay better than the Jays scouts."
Lawrence signed Brown, 21, who is hitting .295 with nine homers and 41 RBIs at class-A Clearwater under manager Ernie Whitt.
Drabek is 6-1 at double-A Reading and, in 19 games, 17 of them starts at Clearwater and Reading he is 10-2 with a 2.80 earned run average. He has walked 38 and struck out 118 in 1221/3 innings. Carrasco is 6-9 with a 5.18 ERA and 112 Ks in 114 2/3 innings.
Taylor is hitting .328 at Reading and Lehigh with 17 homers and 70 RBIs in 96 games the past 10 games at triple-A, while Donald is hitting .230.
So, will Halladay be with the Jays in the third-base dugout at the next home game Aug. 4 against the New York Yankees? Let's go down to the clubhouse for the Halladay sweepstakes odds on whether the ace returns?
"(There is a) 95% chance he's coming back with us," said Aaron Hill. "That other 5% is out of my control. You know he wants to stay here or else a trade would have been made already. He certainly is not forcing the issue."
"It's 92.7% he is back," said Vernon Wells. "First and foremost, he wants to stay here."
"It's 100%," another player said.
The kingmaker in all of this is not Beeston. Nor is it an opposing GM who can or can't throw in an extra double-A prospect. It is Halladay himself.
"I've stopped worrying about it. I'm not sure what's going to happen," Doc said.
If he doesn't want to go, he won't be going anywhere, even if it is a 10-for-1 deal.
by Trent Steele » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:44:51
karn wrote:I don't see that as the problem. If anything, they think most or all of these guys are going to have solid major league careers and trading away too many of them will cause major roster/payroll compromising situations in the next year or two
by Trent Steele » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:50:32
Trent Steele wrote:thephan wrote:Hours after Philadelphia's rejection Sunday, Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi told FoxSports.com he doesn't see Halladay getting traded.
"We've said that we would listen, but that we would have to be motivated and 'wowed,'" Ricciardi told the Web site. "Right now we haven't been. I've said all along my gut tells me I won't be. I still stand by that."
From TSN. I guess the news it that article is that JP is digging in to play hardball. It is hard to take the what the Jays ask for seriously, and to think that JP shrugged off a rather good offer is laughable. Soon enough the Jays will get a worse offer and their hands tied.
There's really only two scenarios where JP gets killed in the media:
1.) Not trading Halladay
2.) Trading Halladay to the Yankees or Red Sox (unless he gets Bucholtz)
He's going to be traded and I'm confident you could get him now simply by including both Drabek and Happ in the deal. If the Phillies stand firm, they might be able to get him without including Drabek or Brown, but I'd say the chances are very low. The problem with that low-ball approach is that allows more teams into the mix and makes it easier for the Angels or Dodgers to make an offer they are comfortable with that doesn't include their key ML players. Bascially, the Happ/Carrasco/Taylor/Donald can - and will - be matched by someone else.
