Then I will go on record as supporting the greatest fan disappointment of the 21st century and suggest that- as long as it is clear NO ONE is getting Halladay- they shouldn't make the deal. Drabek and Brown are both future All-Stars. I cave on Drabek if and only if it looks like he's heading somewhere else, never cave to Drabek AND Brown, under any circumstance

Blue Jay just flew to my feeder.

THIS SHIT'S GETTING DONE!

As I said before, the obvious middle ground is to start with Donald and Carrasco and then Toronto has their choice of either Drabek and Taylor or Happ and Brown. There is no way they can reject that with a straight face. In that scenario the Phils get to keep either Drabek or Brown.

Or if the Phils really want to keep Drabek they should just go straight to Happ/Brown/Donald/Carrasco take it or leave it but that is as good as it is going to get.

ek wrote:I absolutely agree. we aren't going to go much past maybe the NLDS without a rotation upgrade or a severe bench and bullpen upgrade instead

Just keep in mind that this team is almost exactly the same as last year's team, with Ibanez replacing Burrell. I mean, at this point last year we had So Taguchi getting innings, Tom Gordon pitching in relief, and our rotation included bad Brett Myers, Adam Eaton, and Kyle Kendrick.

If the Jays will move off of Happ and Drabek I say give them Happ and Brown along with Carasco and Donald and get this over with. Everyone knows that is the best deal he is going to get. He could be starting in AZ on Wednesday.

ek wrote:unfortunately Karn, the jays won't go for that

OK by me. I'm not of the view that the defending World Champs with a 6.5 game lead (8 in the loss column) have to bend to the irrational economic actor. It strikes me that the other view would be based on an inferiority complex.

SQUIRE

I still feel good. He wants to come here first, we want him badly, we've scouted their guys and they ours the most, we've got as much to offer as any other team he'd come to, trading him to us gets him out of the AL altogether, Gillick's Toronto ties etc.

I think it's past the point of no return for not trading him, and that our players would be really disappointed at this point if we don't him.

Squire wrote:

ek wrote:unfortunately Karn, the jays won't go for that

OK by me. I'm not of the view that the defending World Champs with a 6.5 game lead (8 in the loss column) have to bend to the irrational economic actor. It strikes me that the other view would be based on an inferiority complex.

SQUIRE

I disagree with this and the general contention that what happened with Rolen, Schilling, and Abreu should have any impact on what is done here.

Riccardi is only acting irrationally if it's irrational to believe he can get a better deal than Happ, Taylor, Carrasco, Donald from someone else.

Poor Happ, if/when he gets traded to Toronto... he is most likely going to be pretty bummed, in the starting rotation and pitching well on defending WFC, nice lead in the division and poof you're gone.

Hang in there buddy

Trent Steele wrote:I disagree with this and the general contention that what happened with Rolen, Schilling, and Abreu should have any impact on what is done here.

Riccardi is only acting irrationally if it's irrational to believe he can get a better deal than Happ, Taylor, Carrasco, Donald from someone else.

Fair enough. Perhaps he can get a better deal from Boston or the Yankees but I doubt he takes that. That leaves us and the LA teams.

I just realized my uncle's nephew works in the Jays system. Gots to get that 411

The Dude wrote:I just realized my uncle's nephew works in the Jays system. Gots to get that 411

Isn't that like your third-order cousin or something?

philliesr98 wrote:Poor Happ, if/when he gets traded to Toronto... he is most likely going to be pretty bummed, in the starting rotation and pitching well on defending WFC, nice lead in the division and poof you're gone.

Hang in there buddy

I was thinking about this a bit yesterday, i.e. the players feelings on the subject. I would imagine OTOH Happ would be thinking exactly what you said. OTOH though it has to be a bit of a confidence booster to think that you were a required piece in a deal for the best pitcher in baseball.

Squire wrote:

Trent Steele wrote:I disagree with this and the general contention that what happened with Rolen, Schilling, and Abreu should have any impact on what is done here.

Riccardi is only acting irrationally if it's irrational to believe he can get a better deal than Happ, Taylor, Carrasco, Donald from someone else.

Fair enough. Perhaps he can get a better deal from Boston or the Yankees but I doubt he takes that. That leaves us and the LA teams.

And LAD is going to need the money for this year covered again, right?
LAA and dark horse MIL are the ONLY competition left at this point, in my opinion

traderdave wrote:

philliesr98 wrote:Poor Happ, if/when he gets traded to Toronto... he is most likely going to be pretty bummed, in the starting rotation and pitching well on defending WFC, nice lead in the division and poof you're gone.

Hang in there buddy

I was thinking about this a bit yesterday, i.e. the players feelings on the subject. I would imagine OTOH Happ would be thinking exactly what you said. OTOH though it has to be a bit of a confidence booster to think that you were a required piece in a deal for the best pitcher in baseball.

I bet the plane ride to AZ was all of our All-Stars and vets trying to sway Rube to go for it and then immediately apologizing to JA on their way back through the aisle

Why are people convinced that Toronto will get a better deal?

Dodgers/Angels/Yankees - Will probably have to give up significant contributors from their 25 man rosters, assuming they're even interested?
Boston - Buchholz is the key, very unlikely they'd be willing to do this, not to mention they're in the same division as Toronto and would be expected to pay a premium
Texas - more prospects than the the Phillies, but team has significant financial problems. Seth Everett mentioned this morning on WIP that there was a rumor going around last week that they had trouble meeting payroll.
White Sox/Brewers - maybe, but is Halladay willing to go there?
Phillies - might have to give up one player on their 25 man roster - Happ, who many believe is pitching over his head, and thus may be at the high point of his value. Besides the Rangers (and possibly Boston) have more attractive high level minor league prospects available to trade.

The Dude wrote:I just realized my uncle's nephew works in the Jays system. Gots to get that 411

I got connections at 31 Flavors if that helps.

Oh yeah my assistant JV baseball coach pitched in the minors in the Blue Jays system back in the '80s, maybe he's got the haps, too.

karn wrote:

Squire wrote:

Trent Steele wrote:I disagree with this and the general contention that what happened with Rolen, Schilling, and Abreu should have any impact on what is done here.

Riccardi is only acting irrationally if it's irrational to believe he can get a better deal than Happ, Taylor, Carrasco, Donald from someone else.

Fair enough. Perhaps he can get a better deal from Boston or the Yankees but I doubt he takes that. That leaves us and the LA teams.

And LAD is going to need the money for this year covered again, right?
LAA and dark horse MIL are the ONLY competition left at this point, in my opinion

so, help me out..who in the Angels organization would be equivalent to the Happ, Taylor, Carrasco, Donald offer? Obviously, if they offer Weaver, they win, but let's assume they don't.

Taylor is only 6 months younger than Wood, plays the infield (albeit not well). Wood clearly has some holes in his game, but he has raked throughout the minors. Are Wood and Taylor equivalent? If not, how big is the advantage for Taylor at this point?

What would be the equivalent of Happ? Could Tor. like Joe Saunders more? he was 17-7 last year, but he seems fugazi. Then again, so does Happ.

What if the Bourjos or Reckling and a 4th player? Is that better than the Phils offer?

traderdave wrote:... then Toronto has their choice of either Drabek and Taylor or Happ and Brown.

My problem here is that Door #1 >>> Door #2. Drabek looks for all the world like a #1/#2, while Happ is probably a #4, maybe a #3 if the K rate ticks back up. Whereas the difference between Brown and Taylor might be that one guy plays in five all-star games and the other guy "only" plays in two.

If it's Drabek and Taylor as the centerpieces of the deal, Donald and someone like Flande should be the best of the surrounding bits.