Halladay V - Final Destination

by **lightsout54** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:17:16

Hey FTN going back to my post on the last page....

Where would our prospects rank in the Jays system?

by **PTOITWCFTPP** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:17:21

Bakestar wrote:
dajafi wrote:I'm much more into Lee as a lever to negotiate for Halladay than as an answer in his own right.

Please explain to me why he's a perfectly fine alternative, other than lower price/lower salary.

He still probably would be our best pitcher and we might not have to trade Drabek and Brown for him (hopefully just one).

What would you have to give up for Lee?

Happ, Drabek/Carrasco and what? They have OFers (Sizemore, LaPorta, Choo), so do they want Taylor or Brown? Probably don't have a need for Marson/D'Arnaud with the Martinez situation. Don't need a SS with Peralta and Cabrera. What fits?

by **dajafi** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:18:04

I feel a little better, though I guess I knew all that... would still rather have Halladay, of course.

by **FTN** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:18:08

lightsout54 wrote:Hey FTN going back to my post on the last page....

Where would our prospects rank in the Jays system?

i guess snider and cecil will not be eligible. they dont really have much else in the system, so id have to think that brown and drabek would be 1 and 2

by **JFLNYC** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:18:41

They'll ask for Drabek & Taylor at least IMO.

by **PTOITWCFTPP** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:20:02

dajafi wrote:I feel a little better, though I guess I knew all that... would still rather have Halladay, of course.

I'm not a huge Cliff Lee fan, but i'd rather get him for this and next year then overpay for a Washburn for 2 months if they can't get Halladay.

by **Wizlah** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:21:52

Really, with every day, my appreciation of rube increases. He really does seem to be going about this negotiation the right way.

One thought has been bugging me today, and it's one of those things I don't think I can get a satisfactory answer to. How often are the two parties involved in a trade negotiation trying to get extra info on what their opposite number's real intentions are? I'm presuming it must be fairly common, and I wondered whether gillick was an aid in this regard.

For instance, we're sitting here wondering at what point do jays ownership tell jpr to either not trade halladay, or maybe, accept an offer we're making because the offer is in the interest of the jays, even if it doesn't make him look as good. Does rube have any idea on their intentions? is he actively seeking out that info? Likewise, if someone pulls a white sox and puts in a crazy offer, is rube in a position to respond quickly if he knows about it as the offer comes through?

by **lightsout54** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:23:45

FTN wrote:
lightsout54 wrote:Hey FTN going back to my post on the last page....

Where would our prospects rank in the Jays system?

i guess snider and cecil will not be eligible. they dont really have much else in the system, so id have to think that brown and drabek would be 1 and 2

It seems pretty senseless then not to take a package of some quality prospects, including Taylor and an ML pitcher who's had some success. Its definitely less about the team and more about JPR's sense of self worth

You can cut the smugness with a knife

by **FTN** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:27:31

This is from Bill Madden's article about blowing up the Mets

With two days to go before the Toronto Blue Jays' self-imposed deadline for trading Roy Halladay and five days before the trading deadline, the potential for two blockbuster deals remains. According to sources, at a meeting of Phillies ownership last week, chairman Bill Giles, noting the small window teams have for continued championship runs, pushed for a Halladay deal, even though it will have to cost top pitching prospect Kyle Drabek and three other top prospects, outfielder Michael Taylor, catcher Lou Marson and shortstop Jason Donald. The Phillies are also aware that Halladay has informed the Blue Jays that his first choice would be to go to Philadelphia. That's where the Jays want to trade him, and why they've told the Red Sox that they'd have to get back their two top young pitchers, Clay Buchholz and reliever Daniel Bard, as well as shortstop Jed Lowrie for Halladay. The Red Sox realize they probably need another front-line starter, but with none available, they are now in competition with the Tampa Bay Rays for Indians catcher/first baseman Victor Martinez. The Rays are attempting to acquire Martinez by first dealing Scott Kazmir to the Angels for prospects in order to free up payroll. They would then probably have to sacrifice their own top pitching prospect, Wade Davis, in any deal for Martinez. The Cardinals' acquisition of Matt Holliday - a deal that Tony La Russa pushed for urgently - was made possible when people close to the outfielder, not his rep Scott (Avenging Agent) Boras, expressed a willingness to do a long-term deal with St. Louis. Both Holliday and the Cardinals realized that the market had changed dramatically since Boras advised his client to reject the Rockies' 4-year, $72 million offer in the spring of 2008.

by **kimbatiste** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:29:13

Wizlah wrote:Really, with every day, my appreciation of rube increases. He really does seem to be going about this negotiation the right way.

Maybe we shouldn't be shocked by this. After all, Rube's one area of expertise was contract negotiation where he definitely exceled. If there is one thing he is good at, it is negotations.

by **CFP** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:29:21

Drabek, Taylor, Marson, Donald is a done deal for me. Too bad it won't happen.

by **PSUsarge** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:34:00

CFP wrote:Drabek, Taylor, Marson, Donald is a done deal for me. Too bad it won't happen.

Me too, and idk how you don't accept that as a GM.

by **Wizlah** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:34:29

kimbatiste wrote:
Wizlah wrote:Really, with every day, my appreciation of rube increases. He really does seem to be going about this negotiation the right way.

Maybe we shouldn't be shocked by this. After all, Rube's one area of expertise was contract negotiation where he definitely exceled. If there is one thing he is good at, it is negotations.

Yeah, that's what I thought originally, but your arbitration talks are a different deal - your convincing a third party that your price and estimation of an individual are correct. He's stuck here in high stakes trade talks and he's handling it well - after his approach to signing ibanez, I figured he'd just overpay to get his target in a hurry, but he's been much more savy here.

by **The Red Tornado** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:35:25

I want Halliday now

by **FTN** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:38:14

Its going to be hilarious when the phony deadline comes and goes, and then JP says hes still got time to make a deal.

by **JFLNYC** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:41:16

PSUsarge wrote:
CFP wrote:Drabek, Taylor, Marson, Donald is a done deal for me. Too bad it won't happen.

Me too, and idk how you don't accept that as a GM.

JPR wants a major-league pitcher. If Rube could get him off that stance, the deal would happen IMO.

by **kopphanatic** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:44:30

This Hawksworth sounds like he should be in some rich guy's butler's pantry

by **The Red Tornado** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:44:42

we should act like the Japanese- take JPR out to a nice meal, get him drunk and get him laid.

by **smitty** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:45:32

S2D wrote:
FTN wrote:
dajafi wrote:I'm much more into Lee as a lever to negotiate for Halladay than as an answer in his own right.

Please explain to me why he's a perfectly fine alternative, other than lower price/lower salary.

Hes a real good SP, hes much younger and hes much cheaper.

The single biggest negative with him is that hes an extreme flyball pitcher. So basically you'd be getting another Cole Hamels.

Agree, except he's not much younger than Halladay. They're only like 15 months apart.

Is Lee really an extreme flyball pitcher still? Last season his GB % was 45.9% (46.6% according to BP). This year it's at 43.9%. He induced 27 GIDP DPs last year and his GB/FB % was 1.38.

One thing that might be misleading about him too is thatt Cleveland's bullpen has been pretty terrible over most seasons. He may be a bit better than his numbers suggest.

by **FTN** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 15:51:46

His numbers at ESPN

GB:FB

2004: .53
2005: .57
2006: .51
2007: .60
2008: .87
2009: .87

Thats better, but hes still a flyball pitcher. Compare that to Hamels

0.72
0.79
0.70
0.77

Very similar pitchers. Lee will be helped by a great defense behind him, but he'll still give up home runs.

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Halladay V - Final Destination