Monty kills the Halladay hard on

by **FTN** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 17:27:12

Ace Rothstein wrote:brad penny the phillie next week

nah its Halladay or bust

by **HillMD** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 17:29:17

ek wrote:they just asked gammons again if he'd be dealt. he said "doubtful"

Gammons said he wasn't going anywhere the day before Ricciardi said he'd listen to offers. If Peter Gammons said it was going to be sunny tomorrow I'd buy an umbrella.

by **FTN** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 17:49:40

So Gammons kind of made it sound like its Phillies or nothing, and if it happens it will be a few days before the deadline.

3 prime prospects

by **jerseyhoya** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 17:53:47

Rube strategically waiting for the morning of 7/25, so BSG celebrations in Lot K will be epic.

by **pacino** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 18:57:41

I really don't want to see how the sausage is made. Following this crap just leads me to become annoyed at how we might miss out on a player because of one tiny freakin' hangup

by **FTN** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 18:58:55

where is the "tiny hangup"...? it seems like a big hangup, not wanting to trade 3 of our 4 best prospects

by **pacino** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 19:00:20

I was talking in generalities, but I probably would do this deal. Or I wouldn't. I don't freakin know

Website · by **Wolfgang622** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 19:00:35

ek wrote:
FTN wrote:So Gammons kind of made it sound like its Phillies or nothing, and if it happens it will be a few days before the deadline.

3 prime prospects

yeah he said prime which to me means the top 3 prospects in our org which I guess is Drabek, Taylor and Brown

And doesn't that sound like Rube insists on Taylor + spare parts, Riccardi insists on Taylor + Drabek + Brown, and they'll meet at Drabek + Taylor OR Brown and a couple of lesser prospects?

I'm not hung up on not giving 2/3 of Drabek, Taylor, and Brown. When we first heard Halladay was available, most of us I think agreed that would be a tough but fair price, and it still is IMO.

by **karn** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 19:32:34

I wouldn't give up Drabek or Brown under any circumstances and if that doesn't cut it, then so be it we're still got a KILLER team

Website · by **Wolfgang622** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 19:38:31

karn wrote:I wouldn't give up Drabek or Brown under any circumstances and if that doesn't cut it, then so be it we're still got a KILLER team

I can see that position on Brown, because he plays a different position than Halladay and offers the promise of something different, but with Drabek, in moving him, you are essentially trying to add what we hope Drabek will some day be to this team right now, in preparation for not one but two more WFC runs, this year and next.

I just don't let Drabek hold up this deal. The guy does not have 250 IP professionally yet. And this is Roy Halladay. I feel you've got to make that move if it is there to make.

by **hoya** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 19:40:49

karn wrote:I wouldn't give up Drabek or Brown under any circumstances and if that doesn't cut it, then so be it we're still got a KILLER team

I agree. I don't want to sell the farm for the right to pay a guy close to market value over the next 2 seasons. The Phils are going to be in a tight spot moneywise going forward and having lots of cheap options is essential.

I'd do something like Taylor, Happ, Donald, and Savery. I don't think the Jays will get a better offer, but if they won't take it, we'll be fine.

by **JFLNYC** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 19:42:01

I'm starting to think that maybe we shouldn't trade Taylor. As much as we all love Raul, what if his legs won't let him play OF regularly going forward? We might have to trade him to the AL and then a spot could open up for Taylor.

Website · by **Wolfgang622** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 19:56:46

Sounds like people are talking themselves out of Roy Halladay. We shouldn't trade Drabek or Taylor or Brown. If the Blue Jays will take Donald, Carrasco, and Eric Bruntlett we'll begrudgingly accept, but otherwise, eh, let's go with what we have.

But what tune will we all be singing when bad Joe Bla shows up for Game 2 of the Division series, and Moyer has to pitch game 4?

THIS IS ROY HALLADAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's going to cost us something, but for heaven's sake people, it's worth it!

What is happening here!?!?!?!? Don't let a 12-1 run against the AAA Mets, the Cardinals, the Pirates, and the Marlins let us take our eye off the ball. When we're up against the Dodgers, Cardinals, or Giants, we'll be glad to have an ace like Halladay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by **karn** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 20:02:06

mozartpc27 wrote:
karn wrote:I wouldn't give up Drabek or Brown under any circumstances and if that doesn't cut it, then so be it we're still got a KILLER team

I can see that position on Brown, because he plays a different position than Halladay and offers the promise of something different, but with Drabek, in moving him, you are essentially trying to add what we hope Drabek will some day be to this team right now, in preparation for not one but two more WFC runs, this year and next.

I just don't let Drabek hold up this deal. The guy does not have 250 IP professionally yet. And this is Roy Halladay. I feel you've got to make that move if it is there to make.

My position is that this is a really great team as constructed, and while Halladay would take it to a level of like, really greatness, I don't believe that by not acquiring him do we become any LESS of a contender for a championship. Some will already be in disagreement with me here.

But, with that as the basis for my negotiating strategy, I value- to an infinitely higher degree- the younger, higher ceiling prospects in the system. As you said, Halladay is what you hope Drabek turns into one day. But as hoya said, this isn't a one sided proposition whereby we are simply adding an A+ talent with no potential pitfalls. Acquiring a $15/mil year player puts MAX stress on financial flexibility next year and, frankly, 32, while not old, isn't 29 or 30 and Halladay's high workloads do offer some additional risk factor.

There's just as much risk on any young pitching prospect. This I know. BUT, the level of quality that is LOCKED in for this and the following two seasons is strong enough that I am willing to take the cheaper risk and see if Drabek can't be that Roy Halladay for the next 6 years (and hopefully longer) instead of the taking the expensive risk (in many ways) on the real Roy Halladay for the next two.

Same goes for Dom Brown. I explained in the last thread why it's a no-brainer for me to keep him over Taylor. Basically, if you keep Taylor and trade Brown, you lock yourself into a needlessly stressful and IMPENDING decision to make as to whether you hold Taylor back for upwards of three seasons or trade away an All-Star outfielder in a non-Halladay deal this offseason to likely disgruntlement so you can fit him into the starting lineup

Website · by **Wolfgang622** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 20:13:25

Fair enough, karn. I am just remembering the general position of this board a week and a half ago to two weeks ago - not necessarily your position - that a deal involving Drabek/Taylor/Happ/some other piece would be a tough-but-fair price for Halladay, and when news first broke he was available for real and the Phillies were in on it for real, it seemed the general consensus was this was a deal the Phillies should do. Over the same week and a half to two weeks since this story broke, the Phillies have recovered their position in the standings and then some by ripping off a nice winning streak. This action appears to have made more and more people complacent, and less and less interested in Halladay. Granted, hopefully the Phillies can leverage their recent play and the recent play of their division rivals to lower the price somehwat for Halladay, but Halladay is a special talent that is going to cost. BUT HE WILL BE WORTH IT.

All I am saying is: don't lose your courage people. Halladay pushes the Phillies into "elite" status, not just this year but next. Getting him will be the culmination of the era that began with the rise of Howard & Utley in 2005. The day the Phillies get Halladay will arguably be, with all due respect to October 21, 1980 and October 29, 2008, the greatest day in the history of the franchise, because it will mark the day when the Phillies finally fulfilled their promise, as a franchise, to be the kind of elite player that goes out and adds one of the best pitchers in baseball right after winning one World Series because it is going balls to the wall to win two more.

This is the moment people, RIGHT NOW: don't puss out over Kyle Fuck-ing Drabek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by **laf837** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 20:26:52

Would you object to smaller deals that would keep Drabek, Brown, Taylor, and Knapp and net us a Harang, Wuertz, Sherrill, and/or a Gomes, Bloomquist type?
I'm not skittish about losing Drabek alone but with Brown or Taylor I'm a little leery. The '08 WFC really changes your perceptions. No brainer without that title.

by **Trent Steele** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 20:26:56

LATEST FROM HEYMAN

The Phillies remain nearly everyone's favorite to land star Blue Jays pitcher Roy Halladay, and the teams are believed to have advanced to the point where they have discussed several of Philadelphia's top prospects -- including outfielder Michael Taylor, shortstop Jason Donald and pitcher Carlos Carrasco -- although, there's no evidence yet that the Phillies are relenting on top pitching prospect Kyle Drabek.

If Philly agrees to surrender Drabek, one competing executive said, "they might get (Halladay) real quick.''

But two more competing execs warned that they believe the Phillies would absolutely have to include Drabek -- a dynamic talent who impressed in the Futures Game -- to have any chance to land Halladay. If they're going to trade Halladay, "they've got to get the Phillies' best prospect,'' one American League exec insisted.

Beyond that, a package of Taylor (recently promoted to Triple-A in what looks like an obvious showcase), Donald and Carrasco is, according to another AL executive, woefully short. Plus, other baseball people seem to view outfielder Dominic Brown as Philly's second best prospect after Drabek. Phillies GM Ruben Amaro suggested 10 days ago that Drabek may be untouchable, though more recently he's tempered that remark slightly to say that he won't publicly disclose which prospects they might consider trading.

As a team with the publicly stated desire for a front-of-the-rotation starter, the wherewithal to acquire a star and a decent batch of prospects, the Phillies still appear to be the most logical landing spot, especially after Halladay himself talked about the National League in his remarks at the All-Star Game. Though some still question whether longtime club president David Montgomery will ultimately want to surrender their prime prospects plus spend the money, which amounts to about $23 million through 2010, especially with the club threatening to run away with the NL East, as is.

Jays G.M. J.P. Ricciardi, while suggesting no prospects have been absolutely ruled off limits by any interested teams so far, told SI.com in a phone interview, "I understand each team has certain restrictions. If a team doesn't want to move a player, I understand that. But it probably lessens the opportunity to (make a deal) with that team.''

by **FTN** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 20:27:09

The only trade right now that I would not do is Drabek + Taylor + Brown. I won't give up all 3. I'd hate to see Drabek go, but I think of that trio, Brown is the guy you MUST hold onto.

If we did this deal, we take a lot off the top end of our system. But we still have a ton of interesting prospects, and we've kept our near ML ready guys in Donald and Marson. Both guys would be on the ML roster next year at the minimum, which will be important as we try and keep the salary under control.

Halladay is a stud of studs. Taylor could turn into Dave Winfield. Or he might not. But we have a chance, over the next 2.5 seasons, to re-shape the history of this entire franchise. We have to try.

by **kruker** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 20:27:12

I'm not buying anything that's being said. The situation hasn't changed over the last week, we've just entered that final area where both teams are playing hard ball. I'm still of the mind that the Jays are so much better off trading him now than waiting until the off season. I stick with what I said a few days ago, offer them a deal built around Taylor and Carrasco and/or Knapp plus whatever odds and ends they want. Make it clear that we have no interest of dealing with them after the trade deadline. If they want to prolong this bull shit, that's on them. Recent history is abundantly clear on this issue and it really does take a GM with his head up his ass like JP to fuck this up.

by **danrosz** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 20:28:06

mozartpc27 wrote:Fair enough, karn. I am just remembering the general position of this board a week and a half ago to two weeks ago - not necessarily your position - that a deal involving Drabek/Taylor/Happ/some other piece would be a tough-but-fair price for Halladay, and when news first broke he was available for real and the Phillies were in on it for real, it seemed the general consensus was this was a deal the Phillies should do. Over the same week and a half to two weeks since this story broke, the Phillies have recovered their position in the standings and then some by ripping off a nice winning streak. This action appears to have made more and more people complacent, and less and less interested in Halladay. Granted, hopefully the Phillies can leverage their recent play and the recent play of their division rivals to lower the price somehwat for Halladay, but Halladay is a special talent that is going to cost. BUT HE WILL BE WORTH IT.

All I am saying is: don't lose your courage people. Halladay pushes the Phillies into "elite" status, not just this year but next. Getting him will be the culmination of the era that began with the rise of Howard & Utley in 2005. The day the Phillies get Halladay will arguably be, with all due respect to October 21, 1980 and October 29, 2008, the greatest day in the history of the franchise, because it will mark the day when the Phillies finally fulfilled their promise, as a franchise, to be the kind of elite player that goes out and adds one of the best pitchers in baseball right after winning one World Series because it is going balls to the wall to win two more.

This is the moment people, RIGHT NOW: don't puss out over Kyle $#@!-ing Drabek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't expect there to be a parade held that draws two million people when the Phillies sign Halladay. The greatest day in the history of the franchise? Stop... There's no doubt in my mind that if you were running the show, this "balls to the wall" mentality would have caused you to trade Howard and Utley years ago, and the Phillies would never be in the spot they are currently in.

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Monty kills the Halladay hard on