Cancel the season.

They don't want to win said in the same calendar year where they signed Harper to a 330 million dollar contract, traded for the best catcher in the sport, signed arguably the 3rd best FA starting pitcher, and hired a manager who won has won what this team wants to win along with some highly regarded supporting coaches.

Bottom line is they finished at .500 last season. Yes, they had some bad luck, but even turning that bad luck into average luck won't get them anywhere near where they need to be. So they took that .500 team that outperformed its pyth record and they filled the black hole at 3B with a SS coming off an injury who performed worse than our black hole. Then they did get a solid #2 starter to fill in the black hole after Nola. That's it. One major upgrade at SP and one possible upgrade at 3B. They seem to be hoping that the new coaching staff and the return of the RP will make up the rest of the difference with eflin and arrieta pitching in. Given that most of the teams above us in the division have even more room for improvement in the BP than we do, and given that this board has regularly stated as a whole that managers and coaches don't affect the outcomes of games very much, it's not surprising that people are upset.

It comes down to how mad about it you are and how bad you think the situation is. I think the situation is pretty bad (but not impossible if nearly everything falls their way) and I'm mad that we did such a crap job developing talent for years. I'm also annoyed we aren't willing to go over the cap for a couple years to try to win with this group. I know that would cost us some draft picks that might perpetuate the problem, but throwing some more money at latin america and doing a better job there could offset it.

That said, the players on this team are going to try to win. And the coaches are going to try to win. And I'm here for them and for my team. I don't really understand Shadow's position. Seems like he's just throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Don't forget about the baby, shadow. The baby in this metaphor is the team, in case that's not obvious.

Go Phils!

CalvinBall wrote:They don't want to win said in the same calendar year where they signed Harper to a 330 million dollar contract, traded for the best catcher in the sport, signed arguably the 3rd best FA starting pitcher, and hired a manager who won has won what this team wants to win along with some highly regarded supporting coaches.

Most Philly fans are morons.

gulfcoaster wrote:Shadow sure as hell resonates with me. Big disappointment this off season. I've been watching this team since the 1950 Whiz Kids ... have seen the very very bad, and the very very good. My viewing and my interest levels have come and gone, based on time and tide, and I too have turned them off for a full season or more (remember the 70's?). But after we signed Harper, and after Wheeler, I really thought we were heading back toward the real success we had from 2007-2011. Don't think so. The Nats, Braves, Mets have all improved more than us, IMO. Sure, we can count on Bohm and Howard and other "prospects" -- or we can actually compete. So, predicting maybe 3rd, probably 4th. Middleton has shown his colors.

More room for me to dance.

gulfcoaster wrote:The Nats, Braves, Mets have all improved more than us, IMO.

That's ridiculous, honestly.

The Nats lost their best player, and the 7th-best hitter in the majors last year.
The Mets lost Wheeler, to US, and signed Porcello and Wacha.
The Braves are gonna lose Donaldson, added Hamels, and an expensive LH reliever the year LOOGYs are going away.

Quite right, and an amendment is warranted. So, in the cold light of day, without the influence of Christmas Eve cheer, I would like to remove this line from my post: "The Nats, Braves, Mets have all improved more than us, IMO."

Program alert! Phillies Yule Log on nbc sports philly!

gulfcoaster wrote:Quite right, and an amendment is warranted. So, in the cold light of day, without the influence of Christmas Eve cheer, I would like to remove this line from my post: "The Nats, Braves, Mets have all improved more than us, IMO."

Quality post right here

gulfcoaster wrote:Quite right, and an amendment is warranted. So, in the cold light of day, without the influence of Christmas Eve cheer, I would like to remove this line from my post: "The Nats, Braves, Mets have all improved more than us, IMO."

Amended as far as I’m concerned!

CalvinBall wrote:They don't want to win said in the same calendar year where they signed Harper to a 330 million dollar contract, traded for the best catcher in the sport, signed arguably the 3rd best FA starting pitcher, and hired a manager who won has won what this team wants to win along with some highly regarded supporting coaches.

Word. We can't just keep buying free agents until we're a favorite. They have made more right moves than wrong moves.

Uncle Milty wrote:

gulfcoaster wrote:Quite right, and an amendment is warranted. So, in the cold light of day, without the influence of Christmas Eve cheer, I would like to remove this line from my post: "The Nats, Braves, Mets have all improved more than us, IMO."

Quality post right here

I think he made interweb history

Grotewold wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:

gulfcoaster wrote:Quite right, and an amendment is warranted. So, in the cold light of day, without the influence of Christmas Eve cheer, I would like to remove this line from my post: "The Nats, Braves, Mets have all improved more than us, IMO."

Quality post right here

I think he made interweb history

+1

Werthless wrote:

CalvinBall wrote:They don't want to win said in the same calendar year where they signed Harper to a 330 million dollar contract, traded for the best catcher in the sport, signed arguably the 3rd best FA starting pitcher, and hired a manager who won has won what this team wants to win along with some highly regarded supporting coaches.

Word. We can't just keep buying free agents until we're a favorite. They have made more right moves than wrong moves.

i was wondering if i was the only one who felt this too or if i was crazy.
i forget, which huge top level free agent spends were the ones that won the phils their WS?
i'd rather not ridiculously overspend for the entire roster and get us stuck where we have no flexibility if/when we have the rest of the pieces in place on the roster and developed/traded for to put us over the top for hopefully an extended run.
this is an offseason to add some pieces but imho too many holes to do it all in one shot. wait for jake to finish up. see if the new coaching regimen can fix 1 or more of our major league guys. see if 1 or more of our kids can develop to be a viable starter this or next year. sorry i feel like we're in the long game here.

The question is how long.

There are more ways to improve the club than buying free agents. Truth!

I do think Klentak has improved the club, but that's not surprising when you consider how much money he had to spend when he inherited the team. He also inherited one of the better farms in baseball. Now maybe most of those guys didn't work out, but a good evaluator would have traded them away for prospects or players that did work out. I don't want to be all negative about it, but the reality we should all be able to agree on is that he got a team with boatloads of money to spend and a farm that was considered one of the best in baseball by people who evaluate those things. He took those assets and we are now in a position that we will be picked by most baseball insiders (not message board fans of the Phils) to finish 3rd or 4th in the division. That's reality.

Has he done a good job? Did he make the right moves? Did he make the most of those assets? I don't think he really has. Maybe it's the fault of phillies evaluators and the whole organization is behind the times and not equipped to make the most of those assets through development or trade. I could totally believe that given the state of the farm and how those "good" prospects turned out. But we all know where the axe falls on these things. It's not the owner or the traveling scouts that take the fall, it's the GM. At the moment, it looks like he's turned us into the Angels teams he was part of, expensive teams that didn't compete despite all their assets.

This will be the telling year. If there isn't significant improvement, then I think he needs to go. I already think McPhail should be gone (what does he even do?). I'll hop on the ride at the beginning of the season and see where it goes. It's rarely boring, in any case.

JFLNYC wrote:The question is how long.

Yeh, I don't disagree with mtcal's post. It does seem like more than one hole to fill and if they are unwilling to go over the cap, I think it will require more than one year. But I do think we could be right there with a donaldson signing or Bryant trade and one more pitcher acquisition, if we do decide to go over. Hardly any teams have gone over though, so it may be something teams have agreed not to do.

If you want to feel better, here is the combined fWAR of players in the top 50 of fWAR since the beginning of 2018 that will be under 30 years on opening day:

Phillies (36.4): Realmuto, Harper, Wheeler and Nola
Barves (17.7): Acuna and Albies
Nats (16.8): Soto and Turner
Mets (15.2): Conforto and Syndergaard

and the cost in both salary and/or acquisition per fwar?

I do wonder what they plan is. Feels like we're down to our last couple bullets in the chamber. We can probably take on 1-2 more decent sized contracts in the next year or so and we pretty much need Bohm and Howard to both contribute. Short of that, we're in trouble.

I also wonder if they're planning to go with some sort of opener strategy this season? Our rotation currently resembles Tampa's from year in that we really only have 2, maybe 3 starters.