azrider wrote:

WhiteyFan wrote:My bold offseason prediction is that we sign Cole and trade Bohm+prospects (not Howard) for another solid SP.

The Phils are in win-now mode and we have 2 gaping holes in the rotation. Unless we add 2 stud SP's this off-season, we're not making the playoffs, again.

that's what meddleton said too.

Hoping for a Meddleton-free offseason this year. Leave him at home for the winter meetings.

I'll take him being involved to some extent if it means we get a guy like Cole, Strasburg, or Rendon because of it... I know it undermines Klentak but I like Harper and am not sure if he is here if not for some Meddleton influence

I’m just sort of confused about what Klentak’s vision for the team is that Middleton would be undermining. Clearly when he came in he wanted to build a sustainable winner through the system, but with that not on the horizon it seems like the path forward is to spend on free agents to fill the team’s glaring holes.

Yeah, well, the system rebuild hasn't really worked, so what's the alternative? Suck for 4 more seasons and hope it does?

When I am scanning the posts here at the start of crazy season I feel

gr wrote:Yeah, well, the system rebuild hasn't really worked, so what's the alternative? Suck for 4 more seasons and hope it does?

Yeah that’s what I’m saying. Klentak and Middleton should be largely aligned on high level plan (sign free agents to fill the holes) at this point.

MFP wrote:

Ace Rothstein wrote:Surprised they are giving up on Ramos

Same but with Eickhoff. Always thought he'd be a decently reliable back of the rotation guy but seemed like he could never stay healthy long enough.

Late to this game, but surprised by both.

I heard all the complaints about Middleton being too involved last season when it's Klentak's responsibility... but if Middleton's involvement helped us get Bryce against the other option of not getting Bryce not sure it's a terrible thing... not sure what his involvement has done this far to provide a negative result

It's gonna be a long 3 months until we sign anyone significant

kinda hoping bohn doesn't get traded.

i know, i know, #prospects, but be nice to have a recent top draft pick contribute.

MoBettle wrote:

gr wrote:Yeah, well, the system rebuild hasn't really worked, so what's the alternative? Suck for 4 more seasons and hope it does?

Yeah that’s what I’m saying. Klentak and Middleton should be largely aligned on high level plan (sign free agents to fill the holes) at this point.

Yeah but Klentak's job, and to some extent probably McPhail's, is still to rebuild the farm system. Middleton talked at the press conference about being the CEO and being involved in higher level decisions. The farm system is not something he can really weigh in on as easily because it's a thousand lover-level things.

People who complain and call him Meddleton, I guess they think the silent owner is the only way to be an owner. The franchise had half a dozen of them for years and it drove people nuts. Probably drive Middleton a little nuts too, that's why we have him in this position now. It's not like he's an attention whore like Cuban or Steinbrenner. If he thinks of himself as a CEO as opposed to just a billionaire owner, then of course he's going to be involved in milestone decisions. For the stuff he's left to Klentak, I'm sure he's not pleased that they have to start with a new farm director/structure with little to show from the past regime.

I don't think Klentak has done a bad job here. But I'm not impressed enough to care whether Middleton gets involved or not. And since I believe that we're more likely to land at least one of the biggest fish in FA if JM is involved, I kind of dig it.

SCPhillyPhan wrote:I don't think Klentak has done a bad job here. But I'm not impressed enough to care whether Middleton gets involved or not. And since I believe that we're more likely to land at least one of the biggest fish in FA if JM is involved, I kind of dig it.

+1

bold predictiction: phil make secret handshake deal with jtr to extend him in the latter half of 2020 so that they can afford to improve his playoff chances in 2020 by adding an extra pitcher while staying under( or not far over) the luxery tax limit. they then hold up their part of the bargain by signing cole, wheeler and rendon and trading away all of the salaries of maik, cesar, and dubes.
(the successful salary dump is the other bold part... because it's near to impossible)

Bold prediction - Hoskins gets dealt for pitching, Bohm plays 1B

nycphils wrote:Bold prediction - Hoskins gets dealt for pitching, Bohm plays 1B

I have been thinking about something like this happening and I'm all for it. Hoskins makes me nervous

phorever wrote:bold predictiction: phil make secret handshake deal with jtr to extend him in the latter half of 2020 so that they can afford to improve his playoff chances in 2020 by adding an extra pitcher while staying under( or not far over) the luxery tax limit. they then hold up their part of the bargain by signing cole, wheeler and rendon and trading away all of the salaries of maik, cesar, and dubes.
(the successful salary dump is the other bold part... because it's near to impossible)

Phil? Phil Connors?

Wheels Tupay wrote:

nycphils wrote:Bold prediction - Hoskins gets dealt for pitching, Bohm plays 1B

I have been thinking about something like this happening and I'm all for it. Hoskins makes me nervous

me too, but we really should give him at least a half-season to recover value instead of trading low, especially since bohm needs work on defense at 1b as much as at 3b (according to azrider, who watched him in zona), and is still growing into his power.

the epic 2nd half slump of hoskins could have been a hidden injury or the lingering effects of bad coaching that even cholly couldn't fix quickly. several sources of info indicate that he has been moving to a more and more extremely high launch angles since he came up, resulting in the 7th worst if/fb ratio of 209 qualified hitters. [worth noting that among his neighbors on that list are a mix of similar disappointments and contrasting success stories]. his hard/soft hit ratios and gb/ld/fb ratios and bb/k rates weren't really too far out of line with his previous half-seasons of much greater success, so maybe it was just a run a really bad luck, followed by some panic and frustration in september (which is when the bb/k did take a sharp turn for the worse).

i think the best role for bohm is as the phillies 1b for most of the next decade, and for hoskins is as trade bait... but both will be better ready for assuming those roles in july than this winter.

gr wrote:

MoBettle wrote:

gr wrote:Yeah, well, the system rebuild hasn't really worked, so what's the alternative? Suck for 4 more seasons and hope it does?

Yeah that’s what I’m saying. Klentak and Middleton should be largely aligned on high level plan (sign free agents to fill the holes) at this point.

Yeah but Klentak's job, and to some extent probably McPhail's, is still to rebuild the farm system. Middleton talked at the press conference about being the CEO and being involved in higher level decisions. The farm system is not something he can really weigh in on as easily because it's a thousand lover-level things.

People who complain and call him Meddleton, I guess they think the silent owner is the only way to be an owner. The franchise had half a dozen of them for years and it drove people nuts. Probably drive Middleton a little nuts too, that's why we have him in this position now. It's not like he's an attention whore like Cuban or Steinbrenner. If he thinks of himself as a CEO as opposed to just a billionaire owner, then of course he's going to be involved in milestone decisions. For the stuff he's left to Klentak, I'm sure he's not pleased that they have to start with a new farm director/structure with little to show from the past regime.

Sure, and now he has to do it in the context of a contending team which is harder. If we had 4 Bohms and 3 Howards in their system like the Braves do, trading one of them wouldn't be such a tough decision. Can Klentak be trusted to replenish the system such that we can make those sort of trades without it eventually catching up to us? Unclear.

gr wrote:

MoBettle wrote:

gr wrote:Yeah, well, the system rebuild hasn't really worked, so what's the alternative? Suck for 4 more seasons and hope it does?

Yeah that’s what I’m saying. Klentak and Middleton should be largely aligned on high level plan (sign free agents to fill the holes) at this point.

Yeah but Klentak's job, and to some extent probably McPhail's, is still to rebuild the farm system. Middleton talked at the press conference about being the CEO and being involved in higher level decisions. The farm system is not something he can really weigh in on as easily because it's a thousand lover-level things.

People who complain and call him Meddleton, I guess they think the silent owner is the only way to be an owner. The franchise had half a dozen of them for years and it drove people nuts. Probably drive Middleton a little nuts too, that's why we have him in this position now. It's not like he's an attention whore like Cuban or Steinbrenner. If he thinks of himself as a CEO as opposed to just a billionaire owner, then of course he's going to be involved in milestone decisions. For the stuff he's left to Klentak, I'm sure he's not pleased that they have to start with a new farm director/structure with little to show from the past regime.

The problem isnt with the current Klentak/Meddleton dynamic, it's already clear who's in charge here. The problem becomes finding a hot, new GM once Klentak is inevitably canned. No one is going to want to come in and work for the owner who ran all over the last GM and made him look like a fool. Its Dan Snyder all over again.

Meddleton could've quietly opened the checkbook and made the Harper deal happen like every other owner in MLB would've done. Instead he forced his way into the spotlight to play the role of hero in the public eye, and it was at Klentak's expense. Then he did it again with Cholly. Then he did it again with Gabe. It's just a bad look all around. No one will want to work for an owner like this. He needs to stay out of the limelight this offseason and let Klentak handle things (at least publicly), but I dont think he can. He's an attention whore. And that's a problem.