Woody wrote:LA forgot to mention they were playing with a 7-deck shoe.

In that case you stay, AJ is already blackjack.

The Red Tornado wrote:

Laexile wrote:I did, even knowing that he probably a better hand. A came on the River and it turned out he K 8 and the other guy had the Q . K 8 was disappointed I didn't fold, but with the pot size and my hand I had to roll with it. Because all three bet round limit on the River, the final take on the hand ended up being around $75. I played very few hands due to bad cards, but finished way up as a result.

The flop had 2 , not three. He made his flush then and couldn't get me or the other guy to fold.

How could the river be the A when you had the A ? Cheating?

I think he's a saying that a card that was a heart came on the river, not the Ace of hearts.....

The Red Tornado wrote:

Laexile wrote:I did, even knowing that he probably a better hand. A came on the River and it turned out he K 8 and the other guy had the Q . K 8 was disappointed I didn't fold, but with the pot size and my hand I had to roll with it. Because all three bet round limit on the River, the final take on the hand ended up being around $75. I played very few hands due to bad cards, but finished way up as a result.

The flop had 2 , not three. He made his flush then and couldn't get me or the other guy to fold.

How could the river be the A when you had the A ? Cheating?

My guess is he typed "a heart" and the software posted A ... or some such. It's pretty clear he meant "a heart".

Guy shouldn't be peeved that you called with 3.5 to 1 odds (approximately) and a nut flush draw. That's an automatic call anywhere.

Yeah! Can't you people read? I spend all this time trying to figure out how this software makes appear and it still doesn't come out unambiguous. I never like to call when I believe I don't have the best hand. Even though I had top pair, his maximum raise indicated he had two pair or the flush already. I thought that an ace, a jack, and a were my outs and the pot was too big.

Woody, you aren't allowed to play in our game. I don't need anyone telling my friends that I keep an A in my pocket.

5th place out of 27 tonight...cashed but barely.

TRT was still in it when I left, and had the whole table covered thrice over

I won $15 again tonight from my roomates, and to top that, didnt lose it in blackjack or acey-ducey. me > pacino.

3rd, hit 4 suck outs in a row

Never read any poker boards before, but was just reading a thread on 2+2. They were talking about never folding AA preflop which seems like something they all yell about at all the newbies there. Hypothetical 9 person table and 8 push all in and there you are with AA. Do you go all in? I don't think the obvious yes is so obvious.

Disco Stu wrote:Never read any poker boards before, but was just reading a thread on 2+2. They were talking about never folding AA preflop which seems like something they all yell about at all the newbies there. Hypothetical 9 person table and 8 push all in and there you are with AA. Do you go all in? I don't think the obvious yes is so obvious.

I would think long and hard before calling but that is mostly because I've never had any luck with pocket rockets. I would think in that scenario though that you'd have to call and just hope that you don't get unlucky. I'd think of it this way, you fold and one guy ends up winning the whole pot with trip Ks. You are completely chip dominated now and would be begging for AA so you could go all-in to double up.

Having said all that, I'm sure TRT, Seke or Pacino will now tell me why I'm totally wrong

Seke will call you names if you don't call. The problem is a little bit more complicated than just having the best odds. Especially with all your chips at stake. It's like putting all your money on Dallas to win the NBA championship. They had the best odds, but the odds of them losing far outweigh the odds of them winning. Here you are looking to have 2nd or 3rd most chips at the table with almost no shot at first. But the odds of your aces winning is so long, I'd probably sit that one out.

is it a tourney or cash? do you have most of your bankroll on the table? if so, why do you?

that scenario will never happen, but there will certainly be a couple times where you have AA and you are facing 3 allins in front of you. call based on your stack relative to the other people, whether it's a cash game, and whether you want to be in positive situations to make money

trt - when i saw the standings this morning i was surprised, to say the least, that you came in 3rd. WTF happened?! Kevin is a decent player, but the guy next to you just waits for KK or AA to push allin and the other kid seemed jittery(though he made good moves to steal blinds)

your boy eric played pretty well but didn't seem to get in many situations where he had the best hand or had a hand good enough to call any big bets.

those friday tourneys turn into WPT allin pushfests though.

where the pacino are these games and how may i take your money?

dsp wrote:where the pacino are these games and how may i take your money?

there is one friday night tourney a month and it's always in Avondale PA

there is one saturday tourney a month and the place of the tourney rotates among the regulars houses, the majority are in Montgomery county.

June 16th is in Avondale

July is in Pennsburg

August is at my place in North Wales

September is at seke's place in Norristown

if you are interested you can PM me and I'll give you specific details.

pacino wrote:is it a tourney or cash? do you have most of your bankroll on the table? if so, why do you?

that scenario will never happen, but there will certainly be a couple times where you have AA and you are facing 3 allins in front of you. call based on your stack relative to the other people, whether it's a cash game, and whether you want to be in positive situations to make money

trt - when i saw the standings this morning i was surprised, to say the least, that you came in 3rd. WTF happened?! Kevin is a decent player, but the guy next to you just waits for KK or AA to push allin and the other kid seemed jittery(though he made good moves to steal blinds)

your boy eric played pretty well but didn't seem to get in many situations where he had the best hand or had a hand good enough to call any big bets.

those friday tourneys turn into WPT allin pushfests though.

as I stated, I got my money in with the better hand and about 4 times in a row Kevin or the other guy sucked out on me and I became the short stack. It happens, my play wasnt at fault (probably), just unlucky. Oh well, still won 210 for 3rd.


Kevin is definitely a good player. The other guy just caught the cards at the right time. The table I sat at originally was easy as pie, I was able to make easy reads and the dopes were willing to get their money in when I had them crushed. I will admit I had to make my own suck out on one hand.

Disco Stu wrote:Never read any poker boards before, but was just reading a thread on 2+2. They were talking about never folding AA preflop which seems like something they all yell about at all the newbies there. Hypothetical 9 person table and 8 push all in and there you are with AA. Do you go all in? I don't think the obvious yes is so obvious.

DS, I was gonna reply this weekend but I forgot...but I'll respond now.

Your hypothetical situation is a little different because you are creating a potential $EV/cEV divergence situation. The "never fold AA" stuff is based on assuming there aren't any weird payout implication. Basically:

1) If this is a cash game, folding is horrible period no questions asked. AA has ~33% equity against 8 random hands and ~20% equity against 8 other players all holding top 15% hands. With 20% equity, you are putting in 1/9th of the money getting like 5:1. That's too good to pass up no matter who you are or what skill edge you believe you have. And you probably have more than 20% equity, that's a pretty bad case. In fact, even if you see another player has exactly AA, you are still getting adequate pot odds with the other 7 non-AA-holding players on a top 10% range.

2) If this is the early stages of a MTT and there are no weird payout implications, folding is horrible for the same reasons. Chip EV does not diverge from $EV until you are in/near the money.

3) If this is a STT with 9 players and you are on the BB and 8 players move in ahead of you, this actually gets interesting.

Hero has AA, and we'll assume the other players all have this range:
22+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo (any pair, any decent ace, most two-broadway hands).

Against that range, Hero's AA has 21.4% equity.

I'll make the following assumptions:
All players start with equal stacks (if not, this gets very weird and impossible to calculate with any degree of reason, though I'm guessing the overall conclusion would similar unless the stacks were really weird/imbalanced).
If all 9 players get all in, 8 players will evenly split the prizes for 2nd and 3rd and 1 player will win first.
If Hero folds, he will automatically get 2nd and will play the other guy HU for 1st.

Payouts are standard STT structure, so we'll say $50 buyin and $250/$150/$100 prizes (ignoring rake for sake of simplicity).

So, the possibilities:
Hero calls and has 21.4% equity.
21.4% of the time, Hero wins $250
78.6% of the time, Hero wins $250/8 = $31.25

Hero folds and plays HU for the rest of the money.
Initial:
100% of the time, Hero wins $150

Now, Hero will have an 8:1 disadvantage, and we'll assume players are roughly equal so there is no equity edge, and the chipstack ratio basically indicates the odds, so Hero wins 1st 1/8 of the time and comes in 2nd the other 7/8.

That means that 12.5% of the time, Hero wins an additional $100.


So in the calling scenario, we have this:
(.214 * 250) + (.786 * 31.25) = 53.5 + 24.6 = $78.06 of equity when Hero calls

In the folding scenario, we have this:
$150 + (.125 * 100) = $162.50 when Hero folds.

So, as you can see, in this particular bizarre scenario, folding AA is correct because you gain more equity by taking a guaranteed 2nd place than you do by calling and winning. Even if you're up against 8 totally random hands and you have ~33.5% equity, it's still not a call. But this is only because chip EV and $ EV are diverging.

seke2 wrote:

Disco Stu wrote:Never read any poker boards before, but was just reading a thread on 2+2. They were talking about never folding AA preflop which seems like something they all yell about at all the newbies there. Hypothetical 9 person table and 8 push all in and there you are with AA. Do you go all in? I don't think the obvious yes is so obvious.

DS, I was gonna reply this weekend but I forgot...but I'll respond now.

Your hypothetical situation is a little different because you are creating a potential $EV/cEV divergence situation. The "never fold AA" stuff is based on assuming there aren't any weird payout implication. Basically:

1) If this is a cash game, folding is horrible period no questions asked. AA has ~33% equity against 8 random hands and ~20% equity against 8 other players all holding top 15% hands. With 20% equity, you are putting in 1/9th of the money getting like 5:1. That's too good to pass up no matter who you are or what skill edge you believe you have. And you probably have more than 20% equity, that's a pretty bad case. In fact, even if you see another player has exactly AA, you are still getting adequate pot odds with the other 7 non-AA-holding players on a top 10% range.

2) If this is the early stages of a MTT and there are no weird payout implications, folding is horrible for the same reasons. Chip EV does not diverge from $EV until you are in/near the money.

3) If this is a STT with 9 players and you are on the BB and 8 players move in ahead of you, this actually gets interesting.

Hero has AA, and we'll assume the other players all have this range:
22+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo (any pair, any decent ace, most two-broadway hands).

Against that range, Hero's AA has 21.4% equity.

I'll make the following assumptions:
All players start with equal stacks (if not, this gets very weird and impossible to calculate with any degree of reason, though I'm guessing the overall conclusion would similar unless the stacks were really weird/imbalanced).
If all 9 players get all in, 8 players will evenly split the prizes for 2nd and 3rd and 1 player will win first.
If Hero folds, he will automatically get 2nd and will play the other guy HU for 1st.

Payouts are standard STT structure, so we'll say $50 buyin and $250/$150/$100 prizes (ignoring rake for sake of simplicity).

So, the possibilities:
Hero calls and has 21.4% equity.
21.4% of the time, Hero wins $250
78.6% of the time, Hero wins $250/8 = $31.25

Hero folds and plays HU for the rest of the money.
Initial:
100% of the time, Hero wins $150

Now, Hero will have an 8:1 disadvantage, and we'll assume players are roughly equal so there is no equity edge, and the chipstack ratio basically indicates the odds, so Hero wins 1st 1/8 of the time and comes in 2nd the other 7/8.

That means that 12.5% of the time, Hero wins an additional $100.


So in the calling scenario, we have this:
(.214 * 250) + (.786 * 31.25) = 53.5 + 24.6 = $78.06 of equity when Hero calls

In the folding scenario, we have this:
$150 + (.125 * 100) = $162.50 when Hero folds.

So, as you can see, in this particular bizarre scenario, folding AA is correct because you gain more equity by taking a guaranteed 2nd place than you do by calling and winning. Even if you're up against 8 totally random hands and you have ~33.5% equity, it's still not a call. But this is only because chip EV and $ EV are diverging.

Thanks I'll remember that the next time that happens to me.

seke2- what do you feel about folding aces to a preflop all in in the 1st hand of the main event? The example being is that youre BB and it gets folded to the SB who goes all in. Ive heard some say that even doubling up at this stage doesnt increase your chances enough to win the whole shebang vs. the approx. 20% risk of going out on the 1st hand. Do you agree or disagree?

The Red Tornado wrote:seke2- what do you feel about folding aces to a preflop all in in the 1st hand of the main event? The example being is that youre BB and it gets folded to the SB who goes all in. Ive heard some say that even doubling up at this stage doesnt increase your chances enough to win the whole shebang vs. the approx. 20% risk of going out on the 1st hand. Do you agree or disagree?

Obviously retarded, anyone who folds aces in that spot is ridiculous and the only compelling argument to fold is that you are putting a higher value on being able to spend time playing the ME than you are on winning the tournament.

Most good players acknowledge that their skill edge is too small to fold when they know they are getting like, 60/40 or 55/45 spots, so when you're getting an 80/20 spot, you don't fold, ever. Most good players on 2p2 would not fold QQ on the first hand if the SB moved all in and exposed AK because part of having a skill edge is is knowing that you're not good enough to fold any reasonable equity edge. 55/45 is too much edge to fold, most likely.

So obviously, anyone who folds aces on the first hand is pathetic. Not to mention ESPN would probably end up rushing cameras over to the table when they heard someone was in on the first hand...and do you really want to be the guy who folded aces?

Doubling up might not double your chances of winning, but it improves your chances by enough that you can't fold that kind of edge. If you have a skill edge, it comes from NEVER EVEN CONSIDERING a fold with AA in a non-$EV/cEV divergence spot, period.

seke2 wrote:

The Red Tornado wrote:seke2- what do you feel about folding aces to a preflop all in in the 1st hand of the main event? The example being is that youre BB and it gets folded to the SB who goes all in. Ive heard some say that even doubling up at this stage doesnt increase your chances enough to win the whole shebang vs. the approx. 20% risk of going out on the 1st hand. Do you agree or disagree?

Obviously retarded, anyone who folds aces in that spot is ridiculous and the only compelling argument to fold is that you are putting a higher value on being able to spend time playing the ME than you are on winning the tournament.

Most good players acknowledge that their skill edge is too small to fold when they know they are getting like, 60/40 or 55/45 spots, so when you're getting an 80/20 spot, you don't fold, ever. Most good players on 2p2 would not fold QQ on the first hand if the SB moved all in and exposed AK because part of having a skill edge is is knowing that you're not good enough to fold any reasonable equity edge. 55/45 is too much edge to fold, most likely.

So obviously, anyone who folds aces on the first hand is pathetic. Not to mention ESPN would probably end up rushing cameras over to the table when they heard someone was in on the first hand...and do you really want to be the guy who folded aces?

Doubling up might not double your chances of winning, but it improves your chances by enough that you can't fold that kind of edge. If you have a skill edge, it comes from NEVER EVEN CONSIDERING a fold with AA in a non-$EV/cEV divergence spot, period.

I figured as much, it was something I heard Gavin Smith and Joe Sebok debating last year on internet radio. Not the brightest bulbs I guess.

Poker nerds in love.


lol