19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!)

Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby Monkeyboy » Fri Jul 03, 2015 13:55:14

TenuredVulture wrote:
Monkeyboy wrote:
pacino wrote:Bernie is a federal legislator. Vermont is a state.


I was thinking more of his time as major in burlington. He worked with both sides, was pragmatic, and open to alternative enrgy and other ideas that would move the country forward. I honestly don't know much about him as a legislator.


Both sides? I don't know, but my impression of Burlington, VT is that it's pretty homogenous. I mean, you could almost say the same thing about Rick Perry (remember, Texas does produce a lot of wind generated electricity and Perry was very much in favor of the "Trans-Texas Corridor".)


I thought I read an article from here, but it may have been from somewhere else...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-dre ... 10704.html

In 1981, Sanders ran for mayor of Burlington as an Independent and defeated six-term Democratic Party incumbent Gordon Paquette by 10 votes in a four-way contest. Voters re-elected Sanders three times by increasingly wider margins: 52 percent in 1983, 55 percent in 1985 and 56 percent in 1987.

Burlington was no hippie counterculture enclave. Although the city attracted many young, educated people because of its natural beauty and the presence of the University of Vermont, it has always had a large working-class population (many of them from French Canadian stock) who, until Sanders came on the scene, tended to vote for moderate Democrats and Republicans. Each time he ran for mayor, Sanders attracted increasing support from the city's blue-collar precincts.

In his first two years in office, the City Council refused to allow Sanders to hire more than a handful of staff, while the entrenched bureaucrats in City Hall sought to thwart his initiatives. Randy Kamerbeek, the city's planning director, "tried to sabotage everything that Bernie proposed," recalled Michael Monte, who worked in that agency. "He told us not to allow Bernie to have any visible successes. He figured Bernie would be out of office after his first term."

After he was re-elected in 1983, and voters swept in a more progressive City Council, Sanders gained a stronger foothold in City Hall. With the support of local Republicans and business leaders, he created the Community and Economic Development Office (CEDO) to carry out his vision for more affordable housing, more locally owned small businesses, greater community engagement in planning, and job development.

When Sanders took office, Burlington's Lake Champlain waterfront was an industrial wasteland. Tony Pomerleau, an influential local businessman, planned a mega-project that included a 150-room hotel, retail space, a 100-slip marina, and 240 condominiums in 18-story buildings. In his first campaign, Sanders pledged to kill that plan. After Pomerleau withdrew his proposal, Sanders backed another waterfront plan that included some commercial development, affordable housing, and generous public access. But after voters defeated a bond measure for this proposal, Sanders went back to the drawing board to envision a "people's waterfront."

According to Monte, who worked on the waterfront project for Sanders and was CEDO director for 12 years, "Bernie wanted to make sure that it was a place with plenty of open space and public access, where ordinary people could rent a rowboat and buy a hot dog. That wasn't just for the elite. It was Bernie who set the tone that the waterfront wasn't for sale."

Thanks to Sanders, the Burlington waterfront now has a community boathouse and other facilities for small boats. There's also a sailing center and science center, a fishing pier, an eight-mile bike path, acres of parkland, and public beaches. The commercial development is modest and small-scale. (On May 26, Sanders kicked off his presidential campaign with a rally at Waterfront Park).

Most of Burlington's business leaders initially distrusted Sanders. They didn't know what a socialist would do once he held the reins of power. But even many of Sanders's early opponents came to respect and even admire his willingness to listen to their views and his efforts to adopt progressive municipal policies.

Pomerleau was then -- and remains today, at 97 -- one of Burlington's richest residents. A longtime Republican
, he made his money developing supermarkets, hotels, and shopping centers, and he owns much of Burlington's commercial real estate. For decades, he has wielded considerable political influence, served as chair of the city's police commission, and been its most generous philanthropist.

"When [Sanders] first ran for mayor, he was running against guys like me," Pomerleau recalled in a recent interview.

Pomerleau, who voted against Sanders in 1981, knocked on his door the day after that election. "I said, 'You're the mayor, but it's still my town,'" he recalled.

Pomerleau wasn't happy when Sanders opposed his waterfront development plan, but he gradually got to know the mayor and came to admire his pragmatism, his bulldog tenacity to get things done, and his support for the local police.

"Bernie and I worked very well together for the betterment of the town," Pomerleau said. "We were the odd couple."

Last edited by Monkeyboy on Fri Jul 03, 2015 13:58:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby drsmooth » Fri Jul 03, 2015 13:58:06

jerseyhoya wrote: I think the uncertainty and fear of what comes from a No vote described by Doll is Mine's sister is driving the vast majority of the Yes folks. Over 80% of Greeks want to stay with the Euro. It's not empty scaremongering from the Yes backers in Greece that they'll be kicked out of the Euro if No wins, given the power brokers in Brussles and Berlin are saying the same thing. The status quo is bad, but the logistical, economic, political, etc. issues involved in leaving the Euro and going back to the Drachma might end up being a lot worse.


Think of how scary it must have been to toss those first crates of tea into Boston Harbor.

The best outcome for the Greeks would seem to be voting No
so, despite the seemingly irresistable urges that compel you to side most frequently with the powers of oppression, you basically agree with me. I knew, on the eve of our elemental national holiday, you could do it
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby drsmooth » Fri Jul 03, 2015 14:22:07

jerseyhoya wrote:
drsmooth wrote:Greeks shouldn't muddle their exasperation with Tsipras with their stand on austerity, but looks like they probably will

As a poster who likes to pick on people for simple causal explanations, especially ones that are misleading, this seems like a post that drsmooth would enjoy attacking. I think the uncertainty and fear of what comes from a No vote described by Doll is Mine's sister is driving the vast majority of the Yes folks. Over 80% of Greeks want to stay with the Euro.



Not sure why I was feeling so charitable in my earlier response but I have to say, among your thankfully infrequent cheesedick responses, this portion of this one is among the cheesedickiest.

I commented on the Greeks feelings about another heaping helping of austerity; you reply by insinuating that that Bloomberg article you linked to contained evidence that 4 of 5 Greeks were all for more scourging, when in fact, like most other reporting on the situation there, the poll results that article dwells on find Greek opinion split on austerity.

4 in 5 may favor keeping the euro as a currency, but on the 4th of July 4 in 5 real americans like hot dogs, or the idea of hot dogs, or something.

At the margin, then, something as simple as a distaste for the feckless Tsipras may be sufficient to tip the balance.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby jerseyhoya » Fri Jul 03, 2015 14:32:34

Crude insults! And wrong! The docsmooth politics thread experience!

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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby Monkeyboy » Fri Jul 03, 2015 14:40:28

Before you said docsmooth's name, I thought you were describing the GOP platform.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby pacino » Fri Jul 03, 2015 15:12:12

jerseyhoya wrote:
drsmooth wrote:Greeks shouldn't muddle their exasperation with Tsipras with their stand on austerity, but looks like they probably will

As a poster who likes to pick on people for simple causal explanations, especially ones that are misleading, this seems like a post that drsmooth would enjoy attacking. I think the uncertainty and fear of what comes from a No vote described by Doll is Mine's sister is driving the vast majority of the Yes folks. Over 80% of Greeks want to stay with the Euro. It's not empty scaremongering from the Yes backers in Greece that they'll be kicked out of the Euro if No wins, given the power brokers in Brussles and Berlin are saying the same thing. The status quo is bad, but the logistical, economic, political, etc. issues involved in leaving the Euro and going back to the Drachma might end up being a lot worse.

Not that a lack of confidence in Tspiras isn't pushing some into the Yes camp, but it seems like very much a secondary factor. Other reasons I imagine some people are voting Yes include those who have any sort of savings are presumably desperate for a Yes vote because the subsequent devaluation from leaving the Euro would hit them the hardest. And normal people who are undecided on the referendum, see the Communists agreeing with the Neo-Nazis on a contentious issue and urging a No vote, and decide to vote in the opposite direction because seriously.

The best outcome for the Greeks would seem to be voting No and earning significant concessions/debt forgiveness as a result from people who ultimately decide not to pull the trigger on booting them from the Euro/not calling the Greek's bluff. But they're relying on the kindness of others for that to happen, and the people they're dealing with don't seem terribly nice. There are also a bunch of incentives for the remaining major Eurozone countries to drive a hard bargain on Greece/stick to the ouster threat as a warning to the larger wobbly countries like Spain and Italy to make sure their #$!&@ is together.

It's also a possibility that leaving the Euro will in the medium/long term be a significant benefit to Greece, but it's likely to be a short term catastrophe (on top of the current problems), and voters abhor uncertainty. The country is in such a bad way that the potential for it getting worse is less of a disincentive for change than it normally would be and voters could roll the dice, and I wouldn't blame them for voting No. But I also don't think you can blame them for voting Yes, or pin that on them confusing a dislike for their PM with their stand on austerity.

I think this is a largely pretty sound look at the situation. I think long-term Greece leaving the Euro zone would be a good thing; they are treated as second-class citizens.

They accrued enormous debts, banks allowed them to do it,and now they don't want to give them better terms in order to pay it back. That's not fair and real people will be hurt. I'm honestly not sure why Germany is using this as some moral failing of Greece, either. They got caught up in their growth and gave out too much money to their citizens. Their pension system is only so bad because the let people retire a little too early and they simply don't have as much of a GDP as other European nations. They are poorer. The EU is on part with the pre-Constitution USA in how ridiculous it wants to be one and many. Germany doesn't want to help Greece but they want the ability to profit off Greece. There is no give. Status quo of 25% unemployment is bad and they aren't even giving Greece a chance at this point.

The North likes to use the PIGS as as their pinatas. Banks gave them similar rates of borrowing when they joined the EU, so they borrowed.

Also, Greece is sort of poorly run in general. They collect the level of taxes equivalent to the USA while having higher rates. It kind of always has been.


Fwiw, I think this vote is dumb. You don't leave this in the hands of voters. The vote also really does nothing from what I can tell outside of telling the government what voters want. Voters decided what they want when they held the election. Get a deal. That's not on the voters.


But the way this has been framed as those lazy Greeks or whatever really bugs me.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby Monkeyboy » Fri Jul 03, 2015 15:25:17

I think it was jh who posted a really great article a few years ago on Greece, what led to some of the problems there, and how some of the main issues came to light. It was something about development around a lake, but I don't recall exactly. I think monks were involved.

Rampant corruption was the main thing. That hardly makes them unique, of course.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby jerseyhoya » Fri Jul 03, 2015 15:28:03

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/ ... nds-201010 - A Michael Lewis article, and yeah it's a great read

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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby Monkeyboy » Fri Jul 03, 2015 15:36:47

That's the one. Good stuff.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby Phan In Phlorida » Fri Jul 03, 2015 15:43:28

Bucky wrote:great, now I don't know WHO to vote for


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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby Monkeyboy » Fri Jul 03, 2015 15:49:11

Monkeyboy wrote:That's the one. Good stuff.


Ha! There's this part.

arrived in Athens just a few days earlier, exactly one week before the next planned riot, and a few days after German politicians suggested that the Greek government, to pay off its debts, should sell its islands and perhaps throw some ancient ruins into the bargain. G


so maybe some Germans actually expressed the idea aloud? I don't think I noticed that part when I read it in 2010. Or maybe I forgot.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby TenuredVulture » Fri Jul 03, 2015 18:26:49

Maybe they could pay for the Greek antiquities they looted over the centuries.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby Monkeyboy » Fri Jul 03, 2015 18:30:56

That would be a good response from the Greeks.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby swishnicholson » Fri Jul 03, 2015 18:36:00

Monkeyboy wrote:
Monkeyboy wrote:That's the one. Good stuff.


Ha! There's this part.

arrived in Athens just a few days earlier, exactly one week before the next planned riot, and a few days after German politicians suggested that the Greek government, to pay off its debts, should sell its islands and perhaps throw some ancient ruins into the bargain. G


so maybe some Germans actually expressed the idea aloud? I don't think I noticed that part when I read it in 2010. Or maybe I forgot.


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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby jerseyhoya » Sat Jul 04, 2015 00:39:42

Gov. Wolf vetoed a bill that would have allowed private sales of wine and liquor in PA this week

He suggested in his veto message that it would have resulted in higher prices and less selection, which holds up for a tenth of a second until you look at the private liquor stores in New Jersey which have more selection for lower prices.

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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby drsmooth » Sat Jul 04, 2015 07:10:33

jerseyhoya wrote:Crude insults! And wrong! The docsmooth politics thread experience!


I'm wrong that the aspect of the Bloomberg article you posted a link to, and emphasized, to the exclusion of what its authors emphasized, was not in fact the emphasis of the article you posted a link to, and emphasized, to the exclusion of what its authors emphasized? If that's what you're on about, you really need to explain that in more detail.

Or maybe you feel that I'm wrong when I suggest that you essentially wound up agreeing with me on Greece. I KNOW that would make you apoplectic, but sometimes you have to take a little apoplexy with your truth.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby The Crimson Cyclone » Sat Jul 04, 2015 08:03:56

jerseyhoya wrote:Gov. Wolf vetoed a bill that would have allowed private sales of wine and liquor in PA this week

He suggested in his veto message that it would have resulted in higher prices and less selection, which holds up for a tenth of a second until you look at the private liquor stores in New Jersey which have more selection for lower prices.



I have to agree with this, the loosening of the blue laws was one of the only highlights of PA law the past 5 years
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby pacino » Sat Jul 04, 2015 08:05:21

The Crimson Cyclone wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:Gov. Wolf vetoed a bill that would have allowed private sales of wine and liquor in PA this week

He suggested in his veto message that it would have resulted in higher prices and less selection, which holds up for a tenth of a second until you look at the private liquor stores in New Jersey which have more selection for lower prices.



I have to agree with this, the loosening of the blue laws was one of the only highlights of PA law the past 5 years

it's strategy. the budget is being batted back and forth and this is a big political football in PA.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby pacino » Sat Jul 04, 2015 08:54:39

bye:
DECATUR COUNTY, Tenn. (WKRN) – The employees of the Decatur County clerk’s office in west Tennessee have resigned from their positions.

Clerk Gwen Pope and employees Sharon Bell and Mickey Butler all said their resignations was due to the Supreme Court’s decision to allow same-sex marriages.

The decision reportedly clashes with the employees’ religious beliefs. Their last day will be July 14.

Currently, the Decatur County’s clerk office will not issue a same-sex license.

Just Wednesday, the Associated Press reported all 95 counties in Tennessee are following last week’s U.S. Supreme Court ruling that overturned bans on same-sex marriage. Clerks are legally allowed to refuse to perform the marriages, but must issue the licenses.
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Re: 19 Republican primary candidates and counting (politics!

Unread postby Soren » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:05:55

jerseyhoya wrote:Gov. Wolf vetoed a bill that would have allowed private sales of wine and liquor in PA this week

He suggested in his veto message that it would have resulted in higher prices and less selection, which holds up for a tenth of a second until you look at the private liquor stores in New Jersey which have more selection for lower prices.


Yea pretty disingenuous from the governor. It's about losing high paying union jobs state wide.
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