Repealing and Vetoing Our Way Forward (Politics Thread)

by **TenuredVulture** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:35:33

mozartpc27 wrote:drsmooth, TV, jersey (or anyone else on this board likely to read such things), I have been thinking for awhile now that there is/are papers - books evn - to be written on the discourse of freedom in the contemporary USA. I've found one article in a journal on this subject, which I intend to read, but wondering if there is more expansive (or just more) material out there. If y'all know of any, please let me know.

There are probably thousands of books and journal articles. Can you be a bit more specific? What's the one you found? Anyway, it's not specific to the US, and it's pretty old, but I think you could do a lot worse than start with Isaiah's Berlin's Two Concepts of Liberty.

Website · by **Wolfgang622** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 14:09:51

TenuredVulture wrote:
mozartpc27 wrote:drsmooth, TV, jersey (or anyone else on this board likely to read such things), I have been thinking for awhile now that there is/are papers - books evn - to be written on the discourse of freedom in the contemporary USA. I've found one article in a journal on this subject, which I intend to read, but wondering if there is more expansive (or just more) material out there. If y'all know of any, please let me know.

There are probably thousands of books and journal articles. Can you be a bit more specific? What's the one you found? Anyway, it's not specific to the US, and it's pretty old, but I think you could do a lot worse than start with Isaiah's Berlin's Two Concepts of Liberty.

I am looking for a discussion of the following topics:

What exactly IS freedom (philosophically)?
Historically, what has meant in the United States? How has its definition changed, and who has exercised the force to change it, in what contexts, and for what purposes?
I'm particularly interested in the application of the term in contemporary United States politics.

Anthony Burke's "Freedom's Freedom: American Enlightenment and Permanent War" certainly seems to touch on these issues, but I am less interested in the concept as background to the Bush administration's policy and propaganda vis-a-vis Iraq than in a more comprehensive study of the fight for the meaning of the term freedom, updated basically to the current minute. Certainly the handling of the second Iraq war would need to be a part of that discussion, of course.

by **Stay_Disappointed** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 14:23:00

mozartpc27 wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:
mozartpc27 wrote:drsmooth, TV, jersey (or anyone else on this board likely to read such things), I have been thinking for awhile now that there is/are papers - books evn - to be written on the discourse of freedom in the contemporary USA. I've found one article in a journal on this subject, which I intend to read, but wondering if there is more expansive (or just more) material out there. If y'all know of any, please let me know.

There are probably thousands of books and journal articles. Can you be a bit more specific? What's the one you found? Anyway, it's not specific to the US, and it's pretty old, but I think you could do a lot worse than start with Isaiah's Berlin's Two Concepts of Liberty.

I am looking for a discussion of the following topics:

What exactly IS freedom (philosophically)?
Historically, what has meant in the United States? How has its definition changed, and who has exercised the force to change it, in what contexts, and for what purposes?
I'm particularly interested in the application of the term in contemporary United States politics.

Anthony Burke's "Freedom's Freedom: American Enlightenment and Permanent War" certainly seems to touch on these issues, but I am less interested in the concept as background to the Bush administration's policy and propaganda vis-a-vis Iraq than in a more comprehensive study of the fight for the meaning of the term freedom, updated basically to the current minute. Certainly the handling of the second Iraq war would need to be a part of that discussion, of course.

Freedom for conservatives = owning a gun
Freedom for liberals = smoking pot

by **Bucky** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 14:37:43

freedom for phillies phans= no more RAJ

by **SK790** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 15:01:17

In fairness, a lot of conservatives believe in the freedom to smoke pot.

by **TenuredVulture** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 15:04:35

mozartpc27 wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:
mozartpc27 wrote:drsmooth, TV, jersey (or anyone else on this board likely to read such things), I have been thinking for awhile now that there is/are papers - books evn - to be written on the discourse of freedom in the contemporary USA. I've found one article in a journal on this subject, which I intend to read, but wondering if there is more expansive (or just more) material out there. If y'all know of any, please let me know.

There are probably thousands of books and journal articles. Can you be a bit more specific? What's the one you found? Anyway, it's not specific to the US, and it's pretty old, but I think you could do a lot worse than start with Isaiah's Berlin's Two Concepts of Liberty.

I am looking for a discussion of the following topics:

What exactly IS freedom (philosophically)?
Historically, what has meant in the United States? How has its definition changed, and who has exercised the force to change it, in what contexts, and for what purposes?
I'm particularly interested in the application of the term in contemporary United States politics.

Anthony Burke's "Freedom's Freedom: American Enlightenment and Permanent War" certainly seems to touch on these issues, but I am less interested in the concept as background to the Bush administration's policy and propaganda vis-a-vis Iraq than in a more comprehensive study of the fight for the meaning of the term freedom, updated basically to the current minute. Certainly the handling of the second Iraq war would need to be a part of that discussion, of course.

Much of my recent academic interest deals with some of this, but I am most concerned with what happened in the late 40s and 50s. I do think the Berlin essay would be of interest, with the caveats above. Another interesting, but perhaps dated and not very fashionable these days works that might provide some useful historical background would be Louis Hartz's The Liberal Tradition in America. Both are scholarly, but accessible--I've assigned the former to undergraduates.

I probably can't recommend much of anything that would be "up to the minute" as academics don't really work that way. Most of the so-called public intellectuals that comment on this kind of stuff do so in a fairly unsophisticated way, and their agenda takes center stage to the extent that it's hard to take them seriously. I also think the philosophical understanding of freedom is something rather distinct from its rhetorical usage in contemporary political discourse. Maybe Mary Ann Glendon's Rights talk might be useful, but again, it dates well before the second Iraq war.

by **Bucky** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 15:34:25

there's that stupid meme thing on facebook, something like "next time a muslim tells you only a small percentage of muslims are extremists, remember that only 7-10% of germans were nazis. How did that turn out"? or something like that. My response has been "The way it turned out was nazism was eradicated and good germans continue to exist as productive members of a peaceful society". So far I'm 3 for 3 on the person deleting their stupid meme picture.

by **drsmooth** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 15:47:49

Feels like if you're considering political freedoms in the context of our USofA, you have to tackle Milton Friedman's Capitalism & Freedom at some point

Website · by **Wolfgang622** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 17:24:36

Thanks fellows. And TV, yes, as a once aspiring academic I realize that up to the minute isn't ordinarily the way of these things, but there always new books and journals need to publish somet,after all, so I figured someone might have tackled the issue, particularly in light of - what seems to me anyway - to be a continued importance of that term, both in the theory and the actual practice of the modern day conservative movement.

by **The Nightman Cometh** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 19:33:52

Court rules Christie has to make the pension payment. Good stuff, although the timing is very coincidental.

by **swishnicholson** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 19:40:26

by **pacino** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 20:02:14

Debt doesn't matter if it involves kicking public workers in the teeth.

by **SK790** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 21:16:39

pacino wrote:Debt doesn't matter if it involves kicking public workers in the teeth.

As long as those greedy college attendees pay their damn loans.

by **Phan In Phlorida** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 06:13:15

mozartpc27 wrote:What exactly IS freedom (philosophically)?

by **Luzinski's Gut** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 09:24:52

The freedom question is difficult to answer.

The comment about the 40s and 50s is interesting. There is a great book called The 50 Year Wound by Derek Leebaert, a professor at Georgetown. He looks at the costs the country had to pay to "win" the Cold War. I recommend reading that book and perhaps you will be able to define your definition of freedom to a greater extent.

by **TomatoPie** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:28:42

Test

Are You a Libber Terrier?

TP is.

by **The Dude** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:29:42

the hell you say!

by **jerseyhoya** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:52:27

Internet quizzes are sometimes useful though more oftentimes useless. That one isn't gonna improve the batting average.

by **drsmooth** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:57:11

TomatoPie wrote:Test

Are You a Libber Terrier?

TP is.

You don't actually imagine that affirmative responses to any, let alone many, of those questions denotes a libertarian cast of mind, do you?

Because a person always decides whether to do any of those things

by **The Crimson Cyclone** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:57:14

the way the questions are phrased are rather misleading

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