Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby Monkeyboy » Thu Nov 14, 2013 14:30:38

traderdave wrote:
Monkeyboy wrote:Yeh, I'm not sure how we go from website problems keeping down enrollment to a failure on the level of the Titanic, which is what the opposition wants everyone to think. Sure, you need people to sign up for it to work, but we're talking about a delay of a few months. In the olden days, like just a few years ago, it would have taken 2-3 months to do anything. You know, back before the intertubes said we had to have everything done yesterday.


Look, I voted for Obama twice (I also voted for Christie twice) but it is hard to get past the idea that ACA became law in March 2010. That means they had 3.5 years to get the website right and they still screwed it up badly. Surely you can understand how the shine on Obama's new Maserati might be dulled a bit by the fact that it can't get above 15 mph.

It might not quite reach the level of disaster the GOP would like us to believe but there is no getting around the fact that this is a major problem for the administration AND for the those trying to get insurance. John Boehner is 100% wrong when he says that the website problems are a symbol of the failure of the ACA; the website is not the law, it is merely a conduit for implementing the law. You don't scrap the Maserati because it has a flat tire; you fix the flat and continue down the highway - hopefully at speed exceeding 15 mph.



Um, yes?

I can see why they are having political problems with it. But much of the problems are also made up or exaggerated.

And I'm sure you understand that the GOP has done everything they can to disable and destroy the law (it's a law, but they seem to not care about that fact). It's difficult to implement any law, let alone a complex one like this, when half the government is trying to make it fail. And when I say "try", I mean they have blatantly and publicly tried to scuttle the law. Web designers weren't even allowed to start working on the website until a short time before the launch. I DO believe Obama shares some of the blame, if for no other reason than he didn't do enough to try to sell the law and push back against the insanity. I honestly don't know enough about Sebelius' role in the problems to comment too much. Is it normal for the secretary of a department to be responsible for implementing all aspects of a law influencing that department? I honestly don't know how the nuts and bolts of a legislation's implementation works.

maybe I'm alone, but I think this is mostly an issue of optics. Sell the law better and the GOP couldn't have done what they did. Sell the law better and more people would understand there are multiple means to sign up even if the website is down. Sell the law better and people wouldn't be afraid of big gov coming to take their crappy insurance plans.
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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby drsmooth » Thu Nov 14, 2013 14:46:34

The Nightman Cometh wrote:This is a nightmare. The Obama administration is incredibly incompetent.


Are you simply mocking the hysteria over the available "news", or are you as bamboozled as the average schmuck by the media overdrive?
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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Thu Nov 14, 2013 14:58:02

drsmooth wrote:
The Nightman Cometh wrote:This is a nightmare. The Obama administration is incredibly incompetent.


Are you simply mocking the hysteria over the available "news", or are you as bamboozled as the average schmuck by the media overdrive?

Did you watch the Obama presser?

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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby traderdave » Thu Nov 14, 2013 15:20:55

The Nightman Cometh wrote:You are on a school board, voted for Obama twice, then voted for Christie twice?

That's kind of hilarious.


How so?

I was really just trying to point out, relative to commenting on ACA, that I can be somewhat objective on most topics as I am not married to either party's ideology (although I am not even sure the GOP knows what the GOP's ideology is).

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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby Werthless » Thu Nov 14, 2013 16:39:09

JFLNYC wrote:I have no problem admitting my bias. I'm human, therefore I'm biased. The point is that your particular biases are distorting your ability to view the situation clearly. Some form of universal health care is here to stay. There's a greater chance we'll see a single-payor system before we see the repeal or dismantling of the ACA.

We're talking about a couple different things here... what "will" happen and what "should" happen. I'm not sure you even disagree with my prediction, that IF moderate Democrats align with Republicans and allow folks to go back to their old cheap plans, THEN the current ACA will likely fail. My point isn't one that Republicans are making, in that they are not considering under which circumstances the law is going to fail/succeed. My argument is: if you want the law to succeed, then we need to plow forward with the law as intended (delaying penalties if necessary), but not adding huge carveouts for individuals getting screwed. Those individuals are the ones that are subsidizing the unhealthy folks with pre-existing conditions.

Do you see me arguing against universal health care? I'm arguing that Democrats can't cave into Republican demands without risking dooming the law.
Last edited by Werthless on Thu Nov 14, 2013 16:44:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby Werthless » Thu Nov 14, 2013 16:41:20

pacino wrote:words never uttered by anyone in the private insurance market prior to a month ago: "I like my insurance plan and I want to keep it!"

I have multiple friends who love their private plans so much that they decline their employer coverage, and pay for their health coverage on the side. They are not happy.

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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby Werthless » Thu Nov 14, 2013 16:47:55

drsmooth wrote:
Werthless wrote:
drsmooth wrote:said another way, what is "it" that will go down in flames?

Any patch/loophole that is introduced is going to weaken the law and encourage the death spiral of premiums of folks on the exchange. These patches are going to ensure the demise of the ACA.


You apparently missed the memo explaining that ACA is 2,782,000,236 pages long, ZOMG, so suspension of the dozen or so pages regarding how individuals obtain coverage via exchanges probably isn't "the demise of the ACA".

- Coverage for students to age 26 on parents' plans won't be rolled back

- Medicaid reform provisions probably aren't going anyplace right away

- Communication standards are popular (Summaries of Benefits and Coverage) and probably will stick around

Oh and pre-existing conditions probably won't go back to being the bar to obtaining coverage that they have been for generations in our invidious, state-level "regulated", utterly fucked up previous "system"

there are other appealing & already-in-force provisions that probably aren't "demised" either

Werthless wrote:What a mess.
are you referring to the decades-old mess that has been the individual market heretofore, or the latest re-arrangement of that longstanding mess?

You want to know what's a mess? The brains of 26 kids that were splattered all over a local elementary school, because the fuckwits who make such a big deal about this insurance bullshit couldn't be bothered to put down their rapid-fire mass murder weapons long enough to contemplate that THIS kind of "mess" is a teensy issue in the grand scheme of things.

That's a mess

Werthless wrote:I havent read details yet. But I'm not sure how the federal government is going to compel insurers to "un-cancel" the plans that they cancelled.


Oh, but I hope many chortling republican congresspersons rush to approve any & all proposals to do so. The longer the ugly facts of how the insurers have maltreated the state-level regulatory bodies they have had on the leash for generations are exposed to light, the easier to persuade people of the fuckedupnitude of the way the individual health insurance swindle has been permitted to operate for so long.

I must not have been clear, because I thought we are on the same page. If Democrats cave and join with Republicans to let all of the people have their old plans, then the population insured on the exchange will be much worse than expected, driving up prices for next year. They shouldn't do that if they want the ACA to succeed, regardless of how many or how few pages that affects.

But you are very angry, so obviously you don't think we agree on this.

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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Thu Nov 14, 2013 16:55:13

Image
Toronto Mayor Rob Ford displays a milk moustache as he takes part in voting with city council members in Toronto on Thursday, Nov. 14, 2013.

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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby JFLNYC » Thu Nov 14, 2013 17:14:15

Werthless wrote:I'm not sure you even disagree with my prediction, that IF moderate Democrats align with Republicans and allow folks to go back to their old cheap plans, THEN the current ACA will likely fail. My point isn't one that Republicans are making, in that they are not considering under which circumstances the law is going to fail/succeed. My argument is: if you want the law to succeed, then we need to plow forward with the law as intended (delaying penalties if necessary), but not adding huge carveouts for individuals getting screwed. Those individuals are the ones that are subsidizing the unhealthy folks with pre-existing conditions


I disagree with both your prediction and your argument.

You're a very intelligent poster and I often learn from your posts. My point, again, though is not so much that I disagree that your prediction and argument but, rather, I believe your bias is so strong that it's clouding your otherwise intelligent analysis.
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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby TenuredVulture » Thu Nov 14, 2013 17:20:34

I know he's admitted and all, but I've worked a bit doing drug treatment needs assessments, and there's no way you can be that fat and a crackhead.
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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby drsmooth » Thu Nov 14, 2013 17:38:27

jerseyhoya wrote:
drsmooth wrote:
The Nightman Cometh wrote:This is a nightmare. The Obama administration is incredibly incompetent.


Are you simply mocking the hysteria over the available "news", or are you as bamboozled as the average schmuck by the media overdrive?

Did you watch the Obama presser?


Yes?
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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Thu Nov 14, 2013 17:53:36

It was remarkably bad.

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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby drsmooth » Thu Nov 14, 2013 17:55:49

Werthless wrote:I'm not sure you even disagree with my prediction, that IF moderate Democrats align with Republicans and allow folks to go back to their old cheap plans, THEN the current ACA will likely fail.... I'm arguing that Democrats can't cave into Republican demands without risking dooming the law.


I don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth but I believe the disagreement is with your all-encompassing conception about what will fail. You seem to be conflating this segment of the statute with the whole statute. It's as if you believed this matter of provisions pertaining to the individual insurance market was the entire law.

Werthless wrote:
pacino wrote:words never uttered by anyone in the private insurance market prior to a month ago: "I like my insurance plan and I want to keep it!"

I have multiple friends who love their private plans so much that they decline their employer coverage, and pay for their health coverage on the side. They are not happy.


I've been at this employer-sponsored benefits thing for well, most of your lifetime, and met very,very few people who were at an employer with 5 or more employees, with dependents, or over age 25 who have done this. I'd love to get copies of a) their private plans b) the plans they decline from their employer so I could make a comparison for myself. Maybe they're on to something

Werthless wrote:I must not have been clear, because I thought we are on the same page. If Democrats cave and join with Republicans to let all of the people have their old plans....
"letting" people continue their old INDIVIDUAL plans is a far different matter than letting "all of the people have their old plans". I may have misunderstood the proposed change, but I'm pretty sure the latter is not under consideration.

The former "concession" is kind of hilarious, because it obliges insurers to maintain plans many of which they themselves don't want to continue in force, and if exposed to light - and if peoples' unusual ire remains up (which I will be VERY surprised to see happen) will wind up provoking a goodly number of policyholders and/or their elected representatives to call for the responsible insurance company executives' heads on a pike, without doing much of anything to other provisions of ACA.
Last edited by drsmooth on Thu Nov 14, 2013 18:15:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby drsmooth » Thu Nov 14, 2013 18:00:25

jerseyhoya wrote:It was remarkably bad.


oh

Meanwhile, Boehner's off somewhere asserting that "this [administrative screwup] will destroy the best health care delivery system in the world", practically no word of which is based on what the law he thinks he's talking about actually deals with, which is the method(s) by which a portion of health care costs for a portion of the population are paid for.

Which I guess makes any remark out of his face on this subject irrelevantly bad, which I suppose is fine despite the fact that he's just someone who could actually contribute to getting something useful done about the matter.
Last edited by drsmooth on Thu Nov 14, 2013 18:07:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby Trent Steele » Thu Nov 14, 2013 18:06:49

jerseyhoya wrote:Rob Ford Denies Eating Pussy During Live, Televised Press Conference (Video and possibly the page in general NSFW)

What an amazing man


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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby Werthless » Thu Nov 14, 2013 18:58:35

drsmooth wrote:
Werthless wrote:
Werthless wrote:
pacino wrote:words never uttered by anyone in the private insurance market prior to a month ago: "I like my insurance plan and I want to keep it!"

I have multiple friends who love their private plans so much that they decline their employer coverage, and pay for their health coverage on the side. They are not happy.


I've been at this employer-sponsored benefits thing for well, most of your lifetime, and met very,very few people who were at an employer with 5 or more employees, with dependents, or over age 25 who have done this. I'd love to get copies of a) their private plans b) the plans they decline from their employer so I could make a comparison for myself. Maybe they're on to something

I talked with my co-worker, who has a wife and 4 kids, and found out that he declined the employer coverage and uses a private plan. It has reasonable co-pays (eg. $40 for a primary care visit), $5k deductible, 20% of costs afterward, max out of pocket of $10k. I think the premium is ~$350/mo. He's now going to $900/month. Although the plans are not identical, that's the point. He's paying for services, like maternity, that he dropped because it was no longer appropriate.

I haven't talked to him, but I suspect that he negotiated higher base pay in return for not using the company health care plan. I don't think he has decided whether to join the employer plan or just pay a higher price on the individual market. Our employer has around 200-300 employers, and I dont know their cost/employee.

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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby Werthless » Thu Nov 14, 2013 18:59:00

jerseyhoya wrote:It was remarkably bad.

Let me know if there is a highlight video.

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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby JFLNYC » Thu Nov 14, 2013 19:02:04

Werthless wrote:I have multiple friends who love their private plans so much that they decline their employer coverage, and pay for their health coverage on the side. They are not happy.


I know those people. They're unhappy generally.
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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby drsmooth » Thu Nov 14, 2013 20:31:18

Werthless wrote:I talked with my co-worker, who has a wife and 4 kids, and found out that he declined the employer coverage and uses a private plan. It has reasonable co-pays (eg. $40 for a primary care visit), $5k deductible, 20% of costs afterward, max out of pocket of $10k. I think the premium is ~$350/mo. He's now going to $900/month. Although the plans are not identical, that's the point. He's paying for services, like maternity, that he dropped because it was no longer appropriate.

I haven't talked to him, but I suspect that he negotiated higher base pay in return for not using the company health care plan. I don't think he has decided whether to join the employer plan or just pay a higher price on the individual market. Our employer has around 200-300 employers, and I dont know their cost/employee.


1st let me say that I personally favor the type of plan design your friend has selected for himself and his family. But it's important to understand that it pretty much covers hospitalizations - though they're probably on their own for most of any required post-discharge recuperative care - and an annual wellness visit for each family member. He pays for any physician visits and any medications. And for almost any type of behavioral health care. And for any needed lab & xrays. As long as everyone in his family is healthy, he and they win. The good news is that most people DO win, most of the time. Health insurance is expensive because at any given time a very small group of people have the misfortune to need a very costly array of health care treatments, while the rest of us enjoy relatively good health. Well, that and the ridiculous prices we pay for care, but that's another story....

My hunch is that if his children are of school age/living at home, his wife may have an occasional sleepless night with respect to covering treatment the kids may wind up needing. Going forward, you can bet that SHE is relieved that ACA will enable them to obtain more substantive support, without concerns about disqualification based on health, in the event anyone develops a health condition requiring regular clinical attention or involving regular medications. Of course if the entirety of ACA were to be dissolved they would be in a fragile situation, whether or not you or your friend - or your friend's wife -is aware of it. So yeehaw, let it go up in flames over the fine points of individual policies and those currently covered by them, right?

There is still much we don't know. We don't know what he is/was paying or would pay for his employer's plan - his contribution amount - vs his premium for the coverage he's obtained elsewhere. I don't know what his lifetime maximum benefit is/was under this private plan he has/had. I don't know who's insuring him or did insure him. Few employer-sponsored plans have primary care copays as high as you've identified - though per the above I think you should doublecheck whether his plan covers physician visits, other than the annual checkup mentioned.

So we don't know how to gauge the value of protection he's forgoing for the extra premium he might pay. It might not be worth it to him & his family, but we don't have enough to size that up.

There was more good stuff in your post to chew over, but I'm lazy & hungry
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Re: Last I Checked, It's still 2013 - Politics Thread

Postby drsmooth » Thu Nov 14, 2013 23:01:03

drsmooth wrote:Obamenemies should be leery of "settling" for the non-fix fix that landrieu's proposal actually is.

Even more, I'm kind of surprised insurers have not screamed like stuck pigs about it yet.


Oh the humanity:

NPR wrote:Insurers Aren't Keen On Obama's Pledge To Extend Coverage

It's not clear whether the administration's proposal to let insurers extend the policies they've been canceling for the last couple of months will solve the president's political problem. But it's sure not going over very well with the insurance industry.

"Changing the rules after health plans have already met the requirements of the law could destabilize the market and result in higher premiums for consumers," Karen Ignagni, President and CEO of America's Health Insurance Plans, the insurance industry trade group, said in a statement Thursday.

State insurance regulators are of a similar mind.

"This decision continues different rules for different policies and threatens to undermine the new market," said Louisiana Insurance Commissioner Jim Donelon, President of the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, in a statement.


In case anyone is curious, Karen Ignagni is a shameless lying whore who would pimp out her mom & probably her dad for a nickel. Not that her freedom of speech should be circumscribed.
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