I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Sun Jul 15, 2012 02:30:19

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.


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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby jeff2sf » Sun Jul 15, 2012 07:37:06

Three things:

1. I don't think they paid him "just" 100K. I think they paid him "at least" 100K. Probably because there's a form that says tell us your salary and the highest box to check was "100K +"

2. I'm confused how he was the sole stockholder - is that a legal thing? Because he had "partners" and it's not like he was the sole founder of the group. This is just a detail to me, but one I'm genuinely curious about.

3. I don't like this. And by this I mean what the Democrats are doing. This is b.s. The fact checkers say it's b.s. and Romney is actually 100% right when he says Obama's just trying to distract from his record. He's literally 100% right about this.

Now as a guy who fully plans to vote for Obama short of a Sandusky scandal, I'm not sure I have very many strategic alternatives for a record that, ironically, is similar to Romney's situation. "It's complicated" and doesn't lend itself well to sound bites. And I don't know how you talk about any challenger who hasn't had a lot of government experience because Romney gets an unfair benefit of being "the other guy".

But seriously, pacino, knock it the F off because you (notice I'm not referencing doc smooth because he isn't better than this) and your people are better than that and spent all of 2008 telling us Obama was better than that.
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby drsmooth » Sun Jul 15, 2012 08:05:57

jeff2sf wrote:...
3. I don't like this. And by this I mean what the Democrats are doing. This is b.s. The fact checkers say it's b.s. and Romney is actually 100% right when he says Obama's just trying to distract from his record. He's literally 100% right about this.


This business of his role at Bain is literally part of Romney's literal record as a successful businessperson. So you're literally wrong about Romney being literally 100% right that the Obama campaign is just trying to distract from his record, because that period 1999-2002 is literally part of his record, whether he (Romney) likes it or not. Obviously he doesn't like it. Not one literal bit.
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby jeff2sf » Sun Jul 15, 2012 08:16:21

Smooth, stop. That was an accurate use of the word literal. Just because you don't know the English language and like to cobble together many words in an attempt to seem smart doesn't obscure this. Non-partisan fact checkers say there's nothing to this. But because Obama can't talk about his record (due to Republican obstructionism, the fact that he helped take an economic situation that could have been "historically disastrous" and made it merely "really awful", the fact that the legitimately great thing he did (healthcare) isn't actually liked by the electorate), he talks about a non-issue.

You are literally a democratic water carrier. I'm not posting a picture of the link, but just imagine the doc carrying water. Literally.
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby drsmooth » Sun Jul 15, 2012 09:37:27

jeff2sf wrote:Smooth, stop. That was an accurate use of the word literal.


no. no, it wasn't.

But you got my attention, jeff - success for you!
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby Youseff » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:16:05

jerseyhoya wrote:
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.


WhiteHouse.Gov


So? All seams more than reasonable.
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby Youseff » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:19:02

How do such innocuous comments draw such ire in people?

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2 ... n-Your-Own
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:29:12

Are people now so batshit crazy that they are denying that wealth is a product of social cooperation? It's sort of a starting point for libertarian thought.

What we're seeing over on the right seems more like dime store Nietzsche than serious thinking about markets and distributive justice. I guess Ayn Rand is easier reading than Hayek.
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby dajafi » Sun Jul 15, 2012 13:14:12

Youseff wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.


WhiteHouse.Gov


So? All seams more than reasonable.


The "if you've got a business" line is sloppy and can be parsed by those with an emotional or financial imperative to miss the overall point. Otherwise I agree it's all unarguable.

I think we all often lose sight of how lucky we are to be here, in America. That infrastructure, physical and economic and governance-wise, is one big reason; the history and norms are another. It's why we have Giuliani and John Hagee rather than Putin and Mullah Omar.

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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Sun Jul 15, 2012 13:14:50

Youseff wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.


WhiteHouse.Gov


So? All seams more than reasonable.

Depends if he's telling people they didn't build their businesses or didn't build the American system. If it's the latter the only problem is using 'that' to refer to something he said two sentences earlier. Telling people they didn't build their business seems rude though.

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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby Youseff » Sun Jul 15, 2012 14:15:41

I guess you're better at reading nuance and subtext than me because I don't see him saying that at all.
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby Wolfgang622 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 15:39:05

jerseyhoya wrote:
Youseff wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.


WhiteHouse.Gov


So? All seams more than reasonable.

Depends if he's telling people they didn't build their businesses or didn't build the American system. If it's the latter the only problem is using 'that' to refer to something he said two sentences earlier. Telling people they didn't build their business seems rude though.


I think Obama just flubbed the line. This is just a rehash of an Elizabeth Warren speech:

Elizabeth Warren said and possibly wrote:There is nobody in this country who got rich on their own. Nobody. You built a factory out there - good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory... Now look. You built a factory and it turned into something terrific or a great idea - God bless! Keep a hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby Swiggers » Sun Jul 15, 2012 16:36:15

The problem is the word "build." In the literal sense, the passage is correct, but in the figurative sense, it isn't. And most people interpret "build a business" in the figurative sense. Extremely tone-deaf writing there.
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby Phan In Phlorida » Sun Jul 15, 2012 16:46:31

jeff2sf wrote:1. I don't think they paid him "just" 100K. I think they paid him "at least" 100K. Probably because there's a form that says tell us your salary and the highest box to check was "100K +"

Naw, that's probably the actual "salary", the "paycheck". It's common practice for tax purposes et al. The real money comes from dividend payouts, capital gains, etc.

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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby TenuredVulture » Sun Jul 15, 2012 17:44:42

Swiggers wrote:The problem is the word "build." In the literal sense, the passage is correct, but in the figurative sense, it isn't. And most people interpret "build a business" in the figurative sense. Extremely tone-deaf writing there.


You think if one of these so-called captains of industry was alone on a desert island they'd be able to build much more than a hut? The capitalist system is one of interdependence, and government plays a decisive role in its success. Anyone who denies it must also deny there's any difference between starting a business in the US and starting one in Somalia. Again, you only need to read a bit of Hayek to understand this point.
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Sun Jul 15, 2012 18:57:58

Youseff wrote:I guess you're better at reading nuance and subtext than me because I don't see him saying that at all.

He said "If you've got a business -- you didn't build that."

I think you're looking too hard at nuance and subtext and not looking at the plain English of what he said. It's either badly written or poorly delivered.

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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby Youseff » Sun Jul 15, 2012 19:13:26

I think you're grasping at thin air because you don't like him as a President.
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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby pacino » Sun Jul 15, 2012 19:32:18

somehow the bain thing isnt a real issue, but this is
thephan wrote:pacino's posting is one of the more important things revealed in weeks.

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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Sun Jul 15, 2012 19:56:39

This isn't a real issue either

I just thought it was a dumb thing to say

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Re: I hope you RECALL that this is the POLITICS thread

Postby drsmooth » Sun Jul 15, 2012 21:45:01

jerseyhoya wrote:
Youseff wrote:I guess you're better at reading nuance and subtext than me because I don't see him saying that at all.

He said "If you've got a business -- you didn't build that."

I think you're looking too hard at nuance and subtext and not looking at the plain English of what he said. It's either badly written or poorly delivered.


Parsing transcripts of speeches is a fool's errand

/takeittothecontroversialopinionsthread
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