I don't think there's anything I care about more than gay marriage and abortion rights right now, to be honest. except, like, freedom of speech which isn't really a concern

I'm expecting some reply about how I've been brainwashed by the media or something

I don't care about abortion as a political issue really one way or another, but I have an easier time seeing how the pro life folks get worked up than the pro choice side

I do too. I grew up Catholic and was raised to believe it should be illegal, basically, and I know how fervently people believe in that. I just don't think the media is making an issue out of nothing when states are still (as of February, when Virginia passed the transvaginal ultrasound bill) doing whatever they can to pass legislation that discourages abortion.

still kind of can't believe that because Roger Dorn doesn't have a problem with gay marriage that he thinks it's a non-issue that shouldn't be brought up by the media. you know, because the media just banned it in North Carolina this week

pro-life arguments are almost always religion-based. men don't get pregnant, who the fuck gave us the right to tell girls what to do with their pregnancies? and it's not just abortion that conservatives have gone after, it's also contraception and a variety of other women's health issues.

td11 wrote:pro-life arguments are almost always religion-based. men don't get pregnant, who the fuck gave us the right to tell girls what to do with their pregnancies? .

God.... duh

td11 wrote: and it's not just abortion that conservatives have gone after, it's also contraception and a variety of other women's health issues.

Exactly. This has nothing to do about saving babies and everything to do with control.

td11 wrote:pro-life arguments are almost always religion-based. men don't get pregnant, who the #$!&@ gave us the right to tell girls what to do with their pregnancies? and it's not just abortion that conservatives have gone after, it's also contraception and a variety of other women's health issues.

and scott walker just recently signed a repeal of wisconsin's version of the lily ledbetter act. he's too busy dividing and conquering with billionaires to let women sue their employer for discriminating against them for years upon years.

td11 wrote:pro-life arguments are almost always religion-based. men don't get pregnant, who the fuck gave us the right to tell girls what to do with their pregnancies? and it's not just abortion that conservatives have gone after, it's also contraception and a variety of other women's health issues.

Don't see how killing an unborn human is something that is strictly religion based.

jerseyhoya wrote:California deficit has soared to $16 billion, Gov. Jerry Brown says - They should probably raise taxes on rich people more

Must admit that I'm curious what the pain threshhold really is for Larry & Sergei

and when the Facebook IPO fizzles, Zuckerberg will beg to be nationalized

CalvinBall wrote:

td11 wrote:pro-life arguments are almost always religion-based. men don't get pregnant, who the fuck gave us the right to tell girls what to do with their pregnancies? and it's not just abortion that conservatives have gone after, it's also contraception and a variety of other women's health issues.

Don't see how killing an unborn human is something that is strictly religion based.

I am pretty fiercely liberal, but I have to admit abortion is the one social issue I struggle with. Maybe it was because I was raised Catholic (even attending a pro-life rally at one point), but honestly religion doesn't mean much to me anymore. Nevertheless, like most of my liberal friends, I am anti-death penalty, for example, but I have a hard time reconciling that with a pro-choice position. In particular, I am concerned by the framing of the "pro-choice" position as women exercising choice over their own bodies. As unfair as it may be, the reality is biologically different from that: a fetus is not a body part, and "aborting" It is, in fact, killing it.

That said,it's equally true that a fetus before 24 weeks isn't really viable on its own. Sentience is probably not present until three months, if then even. And women certainly do have an absolute right, as we all do, to self-determination.

I don't know.

I am with you mostly. Does anyone have real numbers on how many abortions are actually because of rape or incest as compared to simple unwanted pregnancy? I tried finding some but don't think what I found could be trusted. Looked a lot through some census stuff but didn't see anything there either.

I'm pretty sure it's a low percentage but any number there will be flawed because rape is so severely underreported in the first place

I don't really think the anti-abortion argument is related to religion. Indeed, scripture pretty clearly indicates life begins at the point where the mother can sense the fetus moving--that's when the soul enters the body. (There's some debate on this, but it's clearly some point after conception.) I too have ethical issues with abortion, but I don't think a fertilized egg is a person. It makes sense from a policy standpoint to reduce incidence of abortion, and if that's the goal, then pro-life groups would logically be seeking easier access to contraception and education. But that's not what they do. So, really, the religious argument has everything to do with controlling a women's sexuality (and punishing her if she violates those norms and little to do with "life".

CalvinBall wrote:

td11 wrote:pro-life arguments are almost always religion-based. men don't get pregnant, who the fuck gave us the right to tell girls what to do with their pregnancies? and it's not just abortion that conservatives have gone after, it's also contraception and a variety of other women's health issues.

Don't see how killing an unborn human is something that is strictly religion based.

"almost always" =/= "strictly"

of course there are cases where a girl gets pregnant carelessly and then wants to abort as a first resort. and yeah, i think that is irresponsible and immature, but again, the fetus is not inside me or you. an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy is a huge physical and emotional toll on the woman, regardless of how it happened. if the woman feels that it is her responsibility to go through with the unplanned pregnancy for entirely non-religious reasons, that is amazing and more power to her. i fully respect that.

i understand where you're coming from cal, but this is a ladies issue. we can fret and fume all we want, but at the end of the day the fetus still resides within her body. it isn't viable outside her body without our science machines even at 24 weeks for that matter.

That some (most?) Republicans are interested in severely restricting access to contraception pretty much gives away the game: they care less about reducing the incidence of unwanted pregnancies and abortions than they do about controlling women's sexual behavior.

At this point, I don't think even the most ardent pro-choicer is in any sense "pro-abortion." There should be universal interest in fewer unwanted pregnancies--many of which, when brought to term, lead to out of wedlock births which we know correlate to a whole bunch of bad outcomes--and fewer terminated pregnancies. There should be close to universal agreement on how we do that: intensive and consistent messaging about the emotional, and "lifestyle" risks of irresponsible sexual behavior. Sexuality is complicated because relationships are complicated: saying to teenagers that "you probably shouldn't have sex, but if you do, you definitely should use protection" isn't too much for their wee little brains to handle. Probably most teens from middle-class and wealthier circumstances do exactly that.

But it's a lot easier, and certainly better for fundraising, to try to ban contraception and then point to the moral failings of "those people."

TenuredVulture wrote:Indeed, scripture pretty clearly indicates life begins at the point where the mother can sense the fetus moving--that's when the soul enters the body. (There's some debate on this, but it's clearly some point after conception.)

I'm not at all convinced biblical references to a woman sensing they're pregnant have much to do with any assertion of any god of the the point at which a self-determining life is under way

seems like something as important as this would be spelled out in a way that would not be open to any interpretation at all - if that was the intent of the guys who made up the bible

If you gave me a week I'm sure I could find something in the bible that can be interpreted as it being morally acceptable to feed your babies to lions or some other ridiculousness.

td11 wrote:

CalvinBall wrote:

td11 wrote:pro-life arguments are almost always religion-based. men don't get pregnant, who the fuck gave us the right to tell girls what to do with their pregnancies? and it's not just abortion that conservatives have gone after, it's also contraception and a variety of other women's health issues.

Don't see how killing an unborn human is something that is strictly religion based.

"almost always" =/= "strictly"

of course there are cases where a girl gets pregnant carelessly and then wants to abort as a first resort. and yeah, i think that is irresponsible and immature, but again, the fetus is not inside me or you. an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy is a huge physical and emotional toll on the woman, regardless of how it happened. if the woman feels that it is her responsibility to go through with the unplanned pregnancy for entirely non-religious reasons, that is amazing and more power to her. i fully respect that.

i understand where you're coming from cal, but this is a ladies issue. we can fret and fume all we want, but at the end of the day the fetus still resides within her body. it isn't viable outside her body without our science machines even at 24 weeks for that matter.

Missed the almost. My apologies.

I just think that there is a choice here and that choice is before you decide to have unprotected sex and risk pregnancy. To me it is more than a women's issue. It's a human issue. There is another party involved here. And I know the fetus can't survive outside a woman's body before a certain amount of weeks. I just can't get past the fact that its something that is human.