JFLNYC wrote:I'm not in favor of shrugging our shoulders and saying, "Oh, well. It's hard and not every team can do it, so I'll give the Phillies a pass."

That's now what I'm saying, at all

I'm disappointed with the degree to which we've dropped but just think the criticism goes overboard

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Given how fast and far this team has fallen and it's current, reasonable prospects for 2014 and beyond, I think it would be hard to overstate how poor a job the franchise has done planning and executing for both short- and long-term success.

JFLNYC wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

That's fine. You were right about Howard and to a lesser extent Rollins/Cuddyer in real time, and I certainly understand your view on Utley and Ruiz. Part of my opinion is I was fine with almost all of the moves at the time

Valle has been DFAed to make room for Carmondez

Valle con dios.

I just don't get it. With the castoff relievers and fodder in the OF, why Valle?! He's 23!

stevemc wrote:I just don't get it. With the castoff relievers and fodder in the OF, why Valle?! He's 23!

There's the problem.

Amaro never had a plan for the transition to a younger team.

Want to know why the Cardinals are set up forever? Two reasons above all others:

1) they didn't cede draft pick after draft pick to sign free agents in their 30s

2) they didn't sign Albert Pujols to a ten year contract after winning the title in 2011

Think about the second one especially. Is there any conceivable universe in which the Phillies don't keep Pujols coming off a championship? The core guys from '08 basically have lifetime employment, and we pay them for what they've done rather than what they'll do.

I think #1 is more on Amaro and #2 is more ownership. But combined, this is how you wind up with a top 5 payroll and bottom 10 record.

Well said.

I'm not sure if I wanted to freak out at the DFA of Valle or not but I guess I will. Why not Luis Garcia?

dajafi wrote:Amaro never had a plan for the transition to a younger team.

Want to know why the Cardinals are set up forever? Two reasons above all others:

1) they didn't cede draft pick after draft pick to sign free agents in their 30s

2) they didn't sign Albert Pujols to a ten year contract after winning the title in 2011

Think about the second one especially. Is there any conceivable universe in which the Phillies don't keep Pujols coming off a championship? The core guys from '08 basically have lifetime employment, and we pay them for what they've done rather than what they'll do.

I think #1 is more on Amaro and #2 is more ownership. But combined, this is how you wind up with a top 5 payroll and bottom 10 record.

didn't the cards offer pujols a big deal, 190M-200M, as well though? that may not be right, but i thought they got lucky when the angels gave him 240M instead. a better example might be david freese. world series hero and he's out the door a few seasons later for an upgrade in center field. that is a guy the phillies never would've moved.

CFP wrote:I'm not sure if I wanted to freak out at the DFA of Valle or not but I guess I will. Why not Luis Garcia?

valle's ops since 2009 - .766/.728/.706/.699/.604. he's been regressing and hasn't shown any improvements. 45 bbs in over 1000 pa the last three seasons. only redeeming factor is he's 23. not sure it mattered who they released.

I dont have the will to argue about this stuff anymore. At least right now. I'm not even sure the Phillies are relevant anymore in the context of MLB. If nothing else, Rube has succeeded in making a majority of his fanbase apathetic. Jokey goth gallows humor is the most I can summon up.

ReadingPhilly wrote:

dajafi wrote:Amaro never had a plan for the transition to a younger team.

Want to know why the Cardinals are set up forever? Two reasons above all others:

1) they didn't cede draft pick after draft pick to sign free agents in their 30s

2) they didn't sign Albert Pujols to a ten year contract after winning the title in 2011

Think about the second one especially. Is there any conceivable universe in which the Phillies don't keep Pujols coming off a championship? The core guys from '08 basically have lifetime employment, and we pay them for what they've done rather than what they'll do.

I think #1 is more on Amaro and #2 is more ownership. But combined, this is how you wind up with a top 5 payroll and bottom 10 record.

didn't the cards offer pujols a big deal, 190M-200M, as well though? that may not be right, but i thought they got lucky when the angels gave him 240M instead. a better example might be david freese. world series hero and he's out the door a few seasons later for an upgrade in center field. that is a guy the phillies never would've moved.

yes, the cards eventually came up to a 10 year, 200 million dollar deal but got bailed out by the angels.

I'm also trying to figure out how the Cardinals tried to make Pujols look like a bad guy. They offered him a 10-year contract for more than $200 million. Granted, it took them a while to get there ... but did anyone of sound mind ever think this would be an easy or simple negotiation on either side?

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/ ... ea63a.html

the cardinals are setup better for the future because of one of the best farm systems in baseball, both drafting and developing, that keeps replenishing all-star level producers at the major league level

the comp for the phillies i guess would be not resigning burrell and later werth i guess

The Phillies would have signed Pujols to 10/200 two years before he was a FA. That's the difference.

maybe they'd only have gone 5/125!

td11 wrote:the cardinals are setup better for the future because of one of the best farm systems in baseball, both drafting and developing, that keeps replenishing all-star level producers at the major league level

And to be fair, they can't really afford to pay for guys like Ibanez and Papelbon as we did, on top of their core guys. I wish we were more like them but am not sure that's the fairest comp out there

ReadingPhilly wrote:

CFP wrote:I'm not sure if I wanted to freak out at the DFA of Valle or not but I guess I will. Why not Luis Garcia?

valle's ops since 2009 - .766/.728/.706/.699/.604. he's been regressing and hasn't shown any improvements. 45 bbs in over 1000 pa the last three seasons. only redeeming factor is he's 23. not sure it mattered who they released.

Disagree with giving up on young catching talent at the age of 23. Luis Garcia walked 23 guys in 31 innings last year. Should have dumped him.

CFP wrote:

ReadingPhilly wrote:

CFP wrote:I'm not sure if I wanted to freak out at the DFA of Valle or not but I guess I will. Why not Luis Garcia?

valle's ops since 2009 - .766/.728/.706/.699/.604. he's been regressing and hasn't shown any improvements. 45 bbs in over 1000 pa the last three seasons. only redeeming factor is he's 23. not sure it mattered who they released.

Disagree with giving up on young catching talent at the age of 23. Luis Garcia walked 23 guys in 31 innings last year. Should have dumped him.

like i said i could've cared less if they released valle, collier, gillies, garcia or a host of other people. valle only has one more year left anyway and obviously wasn't making the team. unless he had a monumental turnaround this year he was gone anyway.