The thing is, I'm not even sure it's the Howard contract that is killing this team, that's not to say it isn't a bad contract (it is), none of the big ugly contracts are hampering this team at the moment. If we had more money to spend, right now, or last offseason, what would we have done to get better? Sign Hamilton? Ellsberry? McCann? Would those guys, plus what we have here make this team a contender? Nope. The problem is that we have no young talent, the problem with paying big money to FA's is that for a guy to actually make it to FA, he's gotta be flawed, close to or at his expiration date, or some combination of the two. The way MLB is now, you HAVE to have homegrown talent and then fill it in around the edges with guys like Cliff Lee or Ellsberry or McCann. You can't use a monetary advantage to take a middling team to a contender anymore, but you can turn your contender into a favorite with money and assets, that's what the phillies did between '09-'11. They had their home grown talent (Utley, Rollins, Hamels, Howard), and added Lee, Halladay, Pence, Oswalt, etc. To keep themselves at the top of the pile, but while they were doing that, they let the foundation rot and never fixed it, and now you've gotta build it back up, from the bottom most likely.

lou marson and tony gwynn jr signed to minor league deals

Lou's back!!

ReadingPhilly wrote:tony gwynn jr signed to minor league deal

not the wrong "brother", but close enough!!

It's true that the Cardinals did make Pujols a great offer that, if he'd accepted it, would have constrained what they could do going forward. As to whether or not they had in mind his likely receptiveness to this offer, who knows. But the bigger point is that they were willing to let him walk. They weren't worried about press or fan reaction; they grasped that success justifies everything. Our decision makers want to win, I'm sure, but also don't want any discomfort or uncertainty.

It seems like the fan reaction on these big money deals sides more with the team.

dajafi wrote:But the bigger point is that they were willing to let him walk. They weren't worried about press or fan reaction; they grasped that success justifies everything. Our decision makers want to win, I'm sure, but also don't want any discomfort or uncertainty.

I mean, it sounds like they just got beat financially

ReadingPhilly wrote:lou marson and tony gwynn jr signed to minor league deals

Two more:

OF Dave Sappelt (5'9", plays all 3 spots, was part of the Sean Marshall trade from CIN to CHC)
RHP Sean O'Sullivan (a shittier version of Kendrick that has pitched for LAA, KC and SD)

ST invites for all four

Gelb says Marson will be Rupp's backup at LV

It's easy to take risks when the cash is rolling in (trading Lee in 2009, signing Halladay, extending Howard, signing Lee, trading for Pence) and it certainly did post World Series through the 2011 season. Perhaps the Howard injury preempted upper management to evaluate two, three, four years down the line and they did not like what they saw. The Hamels and Utley deals were no-brainers and certainly helped with the short-term goodwill among the fanbase. However, as I believe Gelb pointed out today, they're approaching the spending limit for next season. Obviously a lot of this changes if the television deal is as lucrative as the speculation indicates, but it certainly seems the spending will be very modest for the next few years.

Steaks says John Mizerock is the new asst hitting coach.

The B1G Piece wrote:However, as I believe Gelb pointed out today, they're approaching the spending limit for next season. Obviously a lot of this changes if the television deal is as lucrative as the speculation indicates, but it certainly seems the spending will be very modest for the next few years.

The self-imposed (and foolish, imo) limit, yes. Looks like about $24M more available for 2014

Bill McNeal wrote:The thing is, I'm not even sure it's the Howard contract that is killing this team, that's not to say it isn't a bad contract (it is), none of the big ugly contracts are hampering this team at the moment. If we had more money to spend, right now, or last offseason, what would we have done to get better? Sign Hamilton? Ellsberry? McCann? Would those guys, plus what we have here make this team a contender? Nope. The problem is that we have no young talent, the problem with paying big money to FA's is that for a guy to actually make it to FA, he's gotta be flawed, close to or at his expiration date, or some combination of the two. The way MLB is now, you HAVE to have homegrown talent and then fill it in around the edges with guys like Cliff Lee or Ellsberry or McCann. You can't use a monetary advantage to take a middling team to a contender anymore, but you can turn your contender into a favorite with money and assets, that's what the phillies did between '09-'11. They had their home grown talent (Utley, Rollins, Hamels, Howard), and added Lee, Halladay, Pence, Oswalt, etc. To keep themselves at the top of the pile, but while they were doing that, they let the foundation rot and never fixed it, and now you've gotta build it back up, from the bottom most likely.

Bill, it's a bad, bad contract. We've essentially taken 15% of our payroll, rolled it into a ball, and lit it on fire. It limits flexibility to trades/options we can't even know about. We also can't upgrade a premium hitting position with even someone like Darin Ruf and pick up a WAR or two because we need to keep playing Howard in the hope that he might be worth paying 60/70% of his contract to take him off our hands as opposed to taking a full writedown of the asset. And you do this, knowing that the situation is the same next year and the year after.

It's awful. You could still win with a 140 million dollar payroll (165-Howard's contract) but that would necessitate being smart with signings which Amaro hasn't been.

This isn't to minimize the idea that we need younger players coming in and all that, but yes, if Ryan Howard disappeared immediately, many of our problems would be solved.

Amaro says Howard is still alive. Literally. That's what he said.

I think most projection systems hate Howard this year (and evermore), but the Grote© has him kicking serious ass. So there's hope.

Yes my hope that he can do what he did last year vs. RHP in more games and get benched vs. LHP is pretty pie in the sky

Grotewold wrote:Yes my hope that he can do what he did last year vs. RHP in more games and get benched vs. LHP is pretty pie in the sky

Yes, if we can only recapture the magic of those 8 homers he hit in 76 games / 230 PA vs RHP, everything will be OK

Honestly, he had a nice OPS vs RHP last year, but had a .370 BABip against them, too. .334 for his career.

I think a point Jeff made isn't made enough: The problem isn't that we're overpaying some guys, it's that we're overplaying them.

Every team makes bad signings (cue smitty), but one of the nice things about having the Phils' resources is they can afford to make a mistake or two by overpaying. BJ Upton's contract hurts the Braves more than Howard's does the Phillies.

But, as Jeff alluded to, Howard is going to continue to play (if healthy) and bat cleanup even if he can't hit LHP. Rollins is going to continue to play even though he's now essentially an average fielder and putrid offensively. Papelbon is going to continue to close because that's what they're paying him to do.

So, more than costing us money, those bad contracts are costing us wins. Just as bad, they have an opportunity cost attached, too. We lose the opportunity to see if guys like Galvis or Ruf, etc., could do just as good or better at a fraction of the price and/or the opportunity to find someone better, at whatever price, who might make the team better.

That is a fair criticism, but we don't know that stuff for sure now with Sandberg and at least a little less of a win-now mentality

Shore wrote:

Grotewold wrote:Yes my hope that he can do what he did last year vs. RHP in more games and get benched vs. LHP is pretty pie in the sky

Yes, if we can only recapture the magic of those 8 homers he hit in 76 games / 230 PA vs RHP, everything will be OK

Honestly, he had a nice OPS vs RHP last year, but had a .370 BABip against them, too. .334 for his career.

He looked awful last year, physically. If it's arthritic knees, that's a major concern, obviously. And I would obviously cut bait if possible.

But let's not completely discount the possibility that he feels better and performs somewhere between last year's and 2011's production TM

he'll sign a 1 yr deal with the Rays in 2017 and hit 50 HR.