Grotewold wrote:I can put that question right back at you, though -- would we have been golden post-2015 with the returns on Lee and Utley and Ruiz last July, and/or are those or other moves impossible this July? Would not spending any money on Byrd and Ruiz this year have helped post-2015?

The Nightman Cometh wrote:Honestly, what they must be counting on is Howard. If he regains 2011 form, this offense at least has a heartbeat. At that point you might be able to get rid of him if you eat a modest amount of $.

choco wrote:

Grotewold wrote:I can put that question right back at you, though -- would we have been golden post-2015 with the returns on Lee and Utley and Ruiz last July, and/or are those or other moves impossible this July? Would not spending any money on Byrd and Ruiz this year have helped post-2015?

Where would we be if we made the deal with the Dodgers instead of the Red Sox?

Cliff Lee and Ryan Howard (maybe they would've wanted Victorino too) for James Loney, Allen Webster, Ivan De Jesus, Rubby De La Rosa and Jerry Sands.

Would you trust Amaro with all that money to spend? Josh Hamilton would be in our OF right now.

choco wrote:

Grotewold wrote:I can put that question right back at you, though -- would we have been golden post-2015 with the returns on Lee and Utley and Ruiz last July, and/or are those or other moves impossible this July? Would not spending any money on Byrd and Ruiz this year have helped post-2015?

Where would we be if we made the deal with the Dodgers instead of the Red Sox?

Cliff Lee and Ryan Howard (maybe they would've wanted Victorino too) for James Loney, Allen Webster, Ivan De Jesus, Rubby De La Rosa and Jerry Sands.

Would you trust Amaro with all that money to spend? Josh Hamilton would be in our OF right now.

stevelxa476 wrote:

choco wrote:

Grotewold wrote:I can put that question right back at you, though -- would we have been golden post-2015 with the returns on Lee and Utley and Ruiz last July, and/or are those or other moves impossible this July? Would not spending any money on Byrd and Ruiz this year have helped post-2015?

Where would we be if we made the deal with the Dodgers instead of the Red Sox?

Cliff Lee and Ryan Howard (maybe they would've wanted Victorino too) for James Loney, Allen Webster, Ivan De Jesus, Rubby De La Rosa and Jerry Sands.

Would you trust Amaro with all that money to spend? Josh Hamilton would be in our OF right now.

I think the Phillies should always avoid trades that involve us receiving Ivan DeJesus.

Warszawa wrote:It would seem that most of the posts around here lately are focused on trashing Ruben Amaro. But really, he did a great job of putting this team in a position to win the World Series 2009-2011 (although he should have never traded away Cliff Lee to the Mariners ). It was the players that choked. The PLAYERS should not have lost to the Giants in 2010. Nobody on this board thought they should have. Same in 2011 against the Cardinals. The Phillies could have had 3 World Championships with this group of players but they didn't do it. Is that Ruben Amaro's fault? He went all in during those years and Cody fucking Ross and Chris Carpenter ruined it for us.

We all knew 2013 and beyond was going to be a problem because we ransomed the future during the glory years. What else did we expect the Phillies to look like in 2014?

Rev_Beezer wrote:I think the other thing is, to be honest, that if the Phillies were to even get to the World Series in 2010 and 2011, Ruben would have justification to sign bigger names again and spend more money. He responded to their being bounced from the playoffs by being relatively conservative and holding up the status quo (okay, maybe that doesn't apply to 2010, but certainly does to the aftermath of 2011). The Pence trade didn't' pay off, and the trades the next year of Pence and Victorino did not net a good return. Quite frankly, how he handled those trades makes me leery of him trading Lee because I'm not sure that the return would be worth it. It seems that when the Phillies want to get someone via trade, they have to sell the farm, but when they trade someone, they barely get usable pieces. Maybe I'm full of crap on that, I don't know- someone who knows better will correct me, I'm sure.

Warszawa wrote:It would seem that most of the posts around here lately are focused on trashing Ruben Amaro. But really, he did a great job of putting this team in a position to win the World Series 2009-2011 (although he should have never traded away Cliff Lee to the Mariners ). It was the players that choked. The PLAYERS should not have lost to the Giants in 2010. Nobody on this board thought they should have. Same in 2011 against the Cardinals. The Phillies could have had 3 World Championships with this group of players but they didn't do it. Is that Ruben Amaro's fault? He went all in during those years and Cody fucking Ross and Chris Carpenter ruined it for us.

We all knew 2013 and beyond was going to be a problem because we ransomed the future during the glory years. What else did we expect the Phillies to look like in 2014?

JFLNYC wrote:I think that's a really good point. There's no reason a team can't win today while still planning for the future. The Cardinals are an excellent example of a team which contends on a yearly basis (with a smaller payroll), but still manages to develop young talent consistently despite drafting low. During the Braves 14-year stretch of division championships, they gradually but consistently turned over roster positions, substituting younger players for aging veterans. I'm not saying it's easy, but a team with the resources of the Phillies ought to be able to figure it out.

Grotewold wrote:

JFLNYC wrote:I think that's a really good point. There's no reason a team can't win today while still planning for the future. The Cardinals are an excellent example of a team which contends on a yearly basis (with a smaller payroll), but still manages to develop young talent consistently despite drafting low. During the Braves 14-year stretch of division championships, they gradually but consistently turned over roster positions, substituting younger players for aging veterans. I'm not saying it's easy, but a team with the resources of the Phillies ought to be able to figure it out.

But a lot of teams with resources don't figure it out. And very few of the ones that do stay on top for more than five years.

There's a middle ground between the Cardinals' situation and Amaro being a mouth breather

Grotewold wrote:You wrote stuff after that, though