JFLNYC wrote:

swishnicholson wrote:But I also don't see any moves that aren't defensible in some way.

But, swish, this is the kind of thing which drives me crazy. Is that really what the standard is now? That his moves are "defensible in some way?" That the only way a GM can be deemed a failure is if his moves are indefensible? That we're to just sigh and say: "No one stays on top all the time."

I'm not losing any sleep over whether Rube stays or goes, but that sort of defense just seems kind of weak. Whether we like it or not, results do matter. And, even if we cut him some slack on the results as long as the process is good, this is a guy who apparently is not all that big on process either. He doesn't have to have a 5-year plan, but he's got to have some good plan.

He's all too often IMO shrugged his shoulders at the future, e.g., by always seeming to give the extra year to Ibanez, Polanco, Moyer, etc. I would argue that his foresight and anticipation are not good enough, which is why he's gotten caught in a real bind on more than one occasion. For example, he had to trade Lee because he hadn't left himself any maneuverability with his payroll. Then, ironically enough, when Lee fell into his lap, he didn't have enough in reserve to replace his most productive hitter. That sort of thing is a failure of process IMO.

I know we've gotten to the point where we're not changing any minds around here on this issue. I may be too critical of the job Rube has done, but others (and I'm not pointing at you, swish) don't seem to want to hold him to a standard of excellence. He's not some guy sweeping floors who happens to have a bad day. He's got one of only 30 jobs like his in the world. I think he deserves to be held to a really high standard. And, frankly, I think he'd say the same thing if you asked him.

Phan In Phlorida wrote:I wouldn't classify Victorino or Werth as dumpster dives. Both were considered talented players but their orgs got down on them for different reasons. For Werth, it was the hand/wrist issue. For Victorino, the Dodgers were just stoopid (they felt he was developing behind what they had projected for a drafted 17 year old).

Phan In Phlorida wrote:I wouldn't classify Victorino or Werth as dumpster dives. Both were considered talented players but their orgs got down on them for different reasons. For Werth, it was the hand/wrist issue. For Victorino, the Dodgers were just stoopid (they felt he was developing behind what they had projected for a drafted 17 year old).

FTN wrote:dumpster diving is picking up a player for less than $1m on a 1 year deal (or a minor league deal)

Grotewold wrote:Gillick also grabbed lots of actual trash from the dumpster, fyi

smitty wrote:

Grotewold wrote:Gillick also grabbed lots of actual trash from the dumpster, fyi

THE KILLER Zs.

This anointing of Gillick as a genius is kinda funny after reading all the same types of posts about him as we're reading now about Ruin Tommorrow. Lol.

Rod Barajas. Adam Eaton. Pedro Feliz. So Taguchi. Wes Helms. Antonio Alfonseca. Jose Mesa.

All moves lauded here as the work of a pure genius.

smitty wrote:Dumpster diving normally involves a guy having one good year for you. In the last two seasons we've had Horst, Valdez, Pierre, Kratz, Frandsen and Mayberry isn't bad work for just two seasons.

JFLNYC wrote:

swishnicholson wrote:But I also don't see any moves that aren't defensible in some way.

But, swish, this is the kind of thing which drives me crazy. Is that really what the standard is now? That his moves are "defensible in some way?" That the only way a GM can be deemed a failure is if his moves are indefensible? That we're to just sigh and say: "No one stays on top all the time."

I'm not losing any sleep over whether Rube stays or goes, but that sort of defense just seems kind of weak. Whether we like it or not, results do matter. And, even if we cut him some slack on the results as long as the process is good, this is a guy who apparently is not all that big on process either. He doesn't have to have a 5-year plan, but he's got to have some good plan.

He's all too often IMO shrugged his shoulders at the future, e.g., by always seeming to give the extra year to Ibanez, Polanco, Moyer, etc. I would argue that his foresight and anticipation are not good enough, which is why he's gotten caught in a real bind on more than one occasion. For example, he had to trade Lee because he hadn't left himself any maneuverability with his payroll. Then, ironically enough, when Lee fell into his lap, he didn't have enough in reserve to replace his most productive hitter. That sort of thing is a failure of process IMO.

I know we've gotten to the point where we're not changing any minds around here on this issue. I may be too critical of the job Rube has done, but others (and I'm not pointing at you, swish) don't seem to want to hold him to a standard of excellence. He's not some guy sweeping floors who happens to have a bad day. He's got one of only 30 jobs like his in the world. I think he deserves to be held to a really high standard. And, frankly, I think he'd say the same thing if you asked him.

RichmondPhilsFan wrote:

smitty wrote:Dumpster diving normally involves a guy having one good year for you. In the last two seasons we've had Horst, Valdez, Pierre, Kratz, Frandsen and Mayberry isn't bad work for just two seasons.

Mayberry was acquired in November 2008.

swishnicholson wrote:Relevant to nothing, I really wish you would change your avatar. You make really good points and strong arguments, but I always have to make an effort to lower my hackles because I think Dallas Green is poking his finger in my chest and calling me a stupid M-F. And then I feel awful for hating him when I remember the terrible thing that happened to his granddaughter. It makes it so hard to maintain the equilibrium and poise I always strive for.

choco wrote:Amaro doesn't seem to have a plan because he reacts to situations that he puts himself in.

Eem wrote:I mean, wouldn't you consider Jason Grilli a dumpster dive for the Pirates? He was once a hyped prospect whom the Phillies felt was merely organizational depth, and now another organization is reaping the benefits.