Since the FO expressed that acquiring a 3B was an offseason goal, this move isn't a surprise. It's a "change for the sake of change" move, so the FO can say they acquired a 3B.

The important question:
Did we get a Ford Fusion for Ford Fusion money?

Ace Rothstein wrote:whats the differences in Ensberg and Feliz ??

Ensberg can hit? He's a year younger?

Ensberg has 3 years in the last 5 at a 120 or higher OPS+; Feliz's high in that span is 102. Ensberg's 2 off years (OPS+ of 88 and 89) are both higher than Feliz's career number (84).

Per 162 games, Feliz gets on base 162 times, and makes 415 outs. Ensberg gets on base 210 times, and makes 379 outs. He also out-homers Feliz 25 to 20.

Shore wrote:

Ace Rothstein wrote:whats the differences in Ensberg and Feliz ??

Ensberg can hit? He's a year younger?

Ensberg has 3 years in the last 5 at a 120 or higher OPS+; Feliz's high in that span is 102. Ensberg's 2 off years (OPS+ of 88 and 89) are both higher than Feliz's career number (84).

Per 162 games, Feliz gets on base 162 times, and makes 415 outs. Ensberg gets on base 210 times, and makes 379 outs. He also out-homers Feliz 25 to 20.

THANK YOU! IMO, there's just too much to dislike about feliz offensively to make me feel even somewhat satisfied with this signing. i really don't even see why we had to sign him. without a doubt, i would have taken my chances with ensberg instead.

phillychuck wrote: It's probably a 2 or 3 win upgrade, and with wins going for about 4.4 million in the FA market, he was a discount signing, and a good one. As much as it pains me to say it.

I felt this was a deckchair-shuffling job, (more d-fens, less obp), and I was none to happy with the latter part of the argument, but the point about discount wins works in the deals favour. That and the fact that he should remain fairly tradeable on a two year contract.

But . . . cheap offensive crap is still offensive crap. I can't shake that. Bugs me. Well, that and the fact that this thread will in essence be an argument about twiddling at the margins, because we've nothing really big to discuss. It reminds me of a joke about academics:

Why is Infighting in Universities so bad?
Because the stakes are so low.

Shore wrote:

Ace Rothstein wrote:whats the differences in Ensberg and Feliz ??

Ensberg can hit? He's a year younger?

Ensberg has 3 years in the last 5 at a 120 or higher OPS+; Feliz's high in that span is 102. Ensberg's 2 off years (OPS+ of 88 and 89) are both higher than Feliz's career number (84).

Per 162 games, Feliz gets on base 162 times, and makes 415 outs. Ensberg gets on base 210 times, and makes 379 outs. He also out-homers Feliz 25 to 20.

i used to be a big proponent of getting ensberg, but i'm no longer sure he was/is a better alternative than feliz. ensberg hasn't been a good mlb hitter outside his peak years, and his decline from his peak has been so sharp that feliz wasn't far behind him in warp in 2006 and was well ahead in 2007. there are some pretty smart gm's out there (though i'm not sure of the overlap of smart gm's and 3b needs) and no one has grabbed ensberg yet, so maybe they know something about the cause of the dropoff that we don't. being finished at a relatively young age doesn't seem completely unreasonable for someone with his career arc.

so, given all that, and given consistent praise for the defensive value of feliz from analysts i trust (i really am surprised that shore is absolutely certain that the offense outweighs the defense when several sabr heavyweights disagree), this signing might really have been the best thing the phillies could do about the 3b situation. i say "might" cause if ensberg comes back with someone and hits well in 2008, the phillies are going to look really, really dumb.

now all they need to do is figure out how to dump helms.

phorever wrote:i used to be a big proponent of getting ensberg, but i'm no longer sure he was/is a better alternative than feliz. ensberg hasn't been a good mlb hitter outside his peak years, and his decline from his peak has been so sharp that feliz wasn't far behind him in warp in 2006 and was well ahead in 2007.

2006
Ensberg: .396 OBP, .463 SLG
Feliz: .281 OBP, .428 SLG

I'd be shocked if Feliz's glove was worth about a third of a run per game, which is about the difference in their bats in 2006.... 150 points of OPS is a really, really big gap.

The Feliz signing is just a prelude to the Howard for Santana trade because it frees up Dobbs & Helms to platoon at 1B.

>> ThePhans catch up post <<

From LAexile:

“and Helms, to one of the best.”

I got a laugh there

Bruntlett is a horrible hitter and not that good a fielder. So there alone this is an upgrade.

agreed

Feliz is in Barajas class.

Scream! (if I ignore context) 

Milt and Charlie usually help players with walks.

Smiling in agreement…

MattS:

stupid parallel move. makes the offense a game or two worse and the defense a game or two better.

I am not sure that this is a defensible comment. I believe that the increases in defense may be much greater, but even a 5 game increase is substantial. Offense decline is also in doubt in my mind as the third base flavor of the day frequently came up significantly short while at the plate.


I think it all comes down to a few things:

1. Can his propensity to wildly swing at whatever is thrown toward the plate be tamed? If so, things look rosier
2. Will park effect translate into some extra home runs, as CBP tends to allow?
3. Will his excellent defense yield 3 to 5 more wins a season (assuming his stick work does not implode this or the rest of the team adds offense to compensate), which changes the Phillies fortunes dramatically.
4. Is Gary Papa a visionary as he sees the Phils putting up about 50 runs a game (or Feliz averaging 5 grand slams per start)? 8)

Can the Phillies just shut down little, marginally helpful deals and ink something worth talking about with Howard? Please!

thephan wrote:MattS:

stupid parallel move. makes the offense a game or two worse and the defense a game or two better.

I am not sure that this is a defensible comment. I believe that the increases in defense may be much greater, but even a 5 game increase is substantial. Offense decline is also in doubt in my mind as the third base flavor of the day frequently came up significantly short while at the plate.


I think it all comes down to a few things:

1. Can his propensity to wildly swing at whatever is thrown toward the plate be tamed? If so, things look rosier
2. Will park effect translate into some extra home runs, as CBP tends to allow?
3. Will his excellent defense yield 3 to 5 more wins a season (assuming his stick work does not implode this or the rest of the team adds offense to compensate), which changes the Phillies fortunes dramatically.
4. Is Gary Papa a visionary as he sees the Phils putting up about 50 runs a game (or Feliz averaging 5 grand slams per start)? 8)

Can the Phillies just shut down little, marginally helpful deals and ink something worth talking about with Howard? Please!

Okay, where on earth do you see defense improving 5 games a year by adding a third basemen? 50 runs? So he saves like almost 100 hits a year. he only had 302 putouts and 93 assists last year.

The defense will be one to two games better, at most 3.

Helms was bound to improve, and the offense will likely be one to two games worse.

BigEd76 wrote:

Phight On! wrote:2 years/8.5 million according to ESPN

Edit- And a team option for 2010

Looks like Stark updated the story....that 2010 option is $6.5M

I think the total package is being reported at a max of $15M. $8.5M for two years plus $6.5 for the third year would equal $15M. But reports are stating there are incentives included also in that total figure. So the third year is probably less than $6.5M. People are making guesses at this point based on the total figure and some are wrong. $8.5/2-yr + incentives + less than $6.5 for yr-3 seems like the best guess today.

Ace Rothstein wrote:whats the differences in Ensberg and Feliz ??

I get the feeling that the Phils may have inquired about him and were laughed at as a destination by a west coast type guy. So they may have just said forget him based on something like that. It could be as simple as that. Just speculation, but the way they respond to questions about him leads me to suspect they have info we do not.

This seems to be the Cloverfield of FA signings.

I don't care about it much either way. He's a horrible hitter, but the contract isn't that bad, and the offense was horrible there last year, with much more dependence on it being good.

It will be pretty neat to see if the Manuel/Thompson effect shows up with him, and to what extent.

Sounds kind of like the Phillies got Abraham Nunez with 20-homer pop. (Yes, I know the average player hits 18 homers in 600 plate appearances or whatever, I did read the thread. But Abe wouldn't hit 18 homers in 600 slo-pitch softball at-bats.)

If this guy can give us plus defense and extra-base pop, I don't see what's so bad about it, considering what the third-base situation was before the signing. We had/have no prospect of a Zimmerman-type player being in that spot anytime soon. This should be something of an upgrade over Helms, at least the Helms we saw last year, and allow Dobbs to be more of a spare part, which I think is the right role for him.

Personally, I'm excited about adding a plus-defender at third to the infield we already have. And DS, don't be so sure Hamels won't notice Feliz' glove work. I suspect plenty of those 89-90 fastballs he tosses in there get ripped down the third-base line by righties. Helms and Dobbs would watch them like statues if they were 6 inches or more to either side - sounds like Feliz may turn some of the tougher ones into outs.

Feliz is a Phillie, for better or worse. My concern now is that they make the best possible use of him, which means batting him low in the order and often pinch-hitting Dobbs or Coste for him late in certain situations.

Hamels has pretty pronounced fly-ball tendencies.

the obvious question at this point becomes:

10 pages on Pedro Feliz?

drsmooth wrote:the obvious question at this point becomes:



10 pages on Pedro Feliz?

Im surprised it isnt more- nothing has happened for weeks

The Red Tornado wrote:

drsmooth wrote:the obvious question at this point becomes:



10 pages on Pedro Feliz?

Im surprised it isnt more- nothing has happened for weeks

We didn't get 10 pages out of Josh Eachues and John Urick!

If Jimmy's excited about him, then I am too!