two both points:

we've seen that anytime Trump pushes something it get SUCH a large backlash that it won't get the credit it may deserve. There is nothing that Trump can do that the left/center will accept as correct. All vaccines that are viable are into phase 3 trials and that means that they're safe to consume. They may have some bad side effects, but overall, they're pretty safe. If the Vaccine that gets pushed out is effective, but the majority of the population refuses to take it becaue they don't trust that Trump made the correct judgement call, then it'll be disastorous for the public. I think the FDA is only looking for 50% efficacy for the vaccine and doesn't require USA results for it(brazila or SA results would work).

Bucky wrote:yep, that is the notion that is saving my sanity right now.

Me too, but then I remember that Johnson isn't on the ballot and many people who voted for him will go Trump. I know a few.

jamiethekiller wrote:two both points:

we've seen that anytime Trump pushes something it get SUCH a large backlash that it won't get the credit it may deserve. There is nothing that Trump can do that the left/center will accept as correct. All vaccines that are viable are into phase 3 trials and that means that they're safe to consume. They may have some bad side effects, but overall, they're pretty safe. If the Vaccine that gets pushed out is effective, but the majority of the population refuses to take it becaue they don't trust that Trump made the correct judgement call, then it'll be disastorous for the public. I think the FDA is only looking for 50% efficacy for the vaccine and doesn't require USA results for it(brazila or SA results would work).

generally true, but not exactly. phase 2 trials are too small to see safety effects in small populations. phase III isn't only an effectiveness trial. hell, sometimes drugs have to be taken off market after they pass trials because of unacceptable side effects in some subpops that they couldn't detect...or because of long lasting effects like cancer (though obviously this wouldnt be caught in a phase 3). also phase IIs are generally health populations.

you're right on 50% effectiveness...its fairly low but probably makes sense for an early vaccine.

this is going to be a mess no matter what becuase its never been done on a scale like this, with public trust in vaccines (bad) and the admin (with good reason) at an all time low. and this vaccine seems like it actually can knock you on your ass for a day or two.

There is zero chance I'm being a guinea pig for a vaccine that isn't tested properly. Zero. I'll wait until the spring after we've seen the results.

I think most americans will see this barely-tested vaccine coming out at the end of October as the obvious political ploy it is. I think it will hurt him for that reason.

JUburton wrote:

jamiethekiller wrote:two both points:

we've seen that anytime Trump pushes something it get SUCH a large backlash that it won't get the credit it may deserve. There is nothing that Trump can do that the left/center will accept as correct. All vaccines that are viable are into phase 3 trials and that means that they're safe to consume. They may have some bad side effects, but overall, they're pretty safe. If the Vaccine that gets pushed out is effective, but the majority of the population refuses to take it becaue they don't trust that Trump made the correct judgement call, then it'll be disastorous for the public. I think the FDA is only looking for 50% efficacy for the vaccine and doesn't require USA results for it(brazila or SA results would work).

generally true, but not exactly. phase 2 trials are too small to see safety effects in small populations. phase III isn't only an effectiveness trial. hell, sometimes drugs have to be taken off market after they pass trials because of unacceptable side effects in some subpops that they couldn't detect...or because of long lasting effects like cancer (though obviously this wouldnt be caught in a phase 3). also phase IIs are generally health populations.

you're right on 50% effectiveness...its fairly low but probably makes sense for an early vaccine.

this is going to be a mess no matter what becuase its never been done on a scale like this, with public trust in vaccines (bad) and the admin (with good reason) at an all time low. and this vaccine seems like it actually can knock you on your ass for a day or two.

Thanks for the clarifications.

to others: Would you take the same vaccine thats approved in UK in october, but not approved by the FDA in october? Woudl you take the vaccine that Trump pushed in October at the end of November?

jamiethekiller wrote:

JUburton wrote:

jamiethekiller wrote:two both points:

we've seen that anytime Trump pushes something it get SUCH a large backlash that it won't get the credit it may deserve. There is nothing that Trump can do that the left/center will accept as correct. All vaccines that are viable are into phase 3 trials and that means that they're safe to consume. They may have some bad side effects, but overall, they're pretty safe. If the Vaccine that gets pushed out is effective, but the majority of the population refuses to take it becaue they don't trust that Trump made the correct judgement call, then it'll be disastorous for the public. I think the FDA is only looking for 50% efficacy for the vaccine and doesn't require USA results for it(brazila or SA results would work).

generally true, but not exactly. phase 2 trials are too small to see safety effects in small populations. phase III isn't only an effectiveness trial. hell, sometimes drugs have to be taken off market after they pass trials because of unacceptable side effects in some subpops that they couldn't detect...or because of long lasting effects like cancer (though obviously this wouldnt be caught in a phase 3). also phase IIs are generally health populations.

you're right on 50% effectiveness...its fairly low but probably makes sense for an early vaccine.

this is going to be a mess no matter what becuase its never been done on a scale like this, with public trust in vaccines (bad) and the admin (with good reason) at an all time low. and this vaccine seems like it actually can knock you on your ass for a day or two.

Thanks for the clarifications.

to others: Would you take the same vaccine thats approved in UK in october, but not approved by the FDA in october? Woudl you take the vaccine that Trump pushed in October at the end of November?

i know you said to others but i'd probably look at how it was approved here first. was it standard approval process, was it the FDA head, HHS head with increasing skepticism as it goes up the chain. no matter what i'd probably wait for some 3rd party reviews of the paper that accompanies it (as im sure this will exist). it won't be patient level access or anything but should give a pretty clear indication on risk. it would be even better if the EMA approves it also.

that said, i may not immediately take a vaccine that Azar overrides to approve and no one else has fully reviewed yet. i would definitely take one that went through FDA's standard process and in between...i'd probably have to figure it out as the situation arose.

heyeaglefn wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Trump pushing to get a vaccine distributed in late October is in my opinion likely to backfire. It seems much of his base are likely anti-vaxxers, and I would bet that an overwhelming majority of the 30% who say they would refuse a vaccine are Trump supporters. I mean, sure, some Trump supporters did drink the bleach (I think bleach should replace kool-aid as the beverage of choice for the gullible) but I think many will stop at actually injecting something into their bodies. Non-Trump supporters don't trust him anyway.

I don't think trump needs to worry about the part of his base that are anti-vaxxers, he has their votes anyway. It isn't the uneducated, anti mask wearers he needs to swing, he has their vote.

He needs to try to work on some of the undecided college educated voters that trust scientists.

Presumably, scientists and others will say this has been rushed out for political reasons and they're likely to be credible especially when you also have Trumpers out there on social media talking about how they won't get the vaccine.

On top of all that, there's also a huge distribution problem. An administration that still hasn't been effective in rolling out tests isn't going to be able to get a vaccine to enough people in anything like a reasonable amount of time.

I wouldn't trust them to roll out a slip n' slide

jamiethekiller wrote:

JUburton wrote:

jamiethekiller wrote:two both points:

we've seen that anytime Trump pushes something it get SUCH a large backlash that it won't get the credit it may deserve. There is nothing that Trump can do that the left/center will accept as correct. All vaccines that are viable are into phase 3 trials and that means that they're safe to consume. They may have some bad side effects, but overall, they're pretty safe. If the Vaccine that gets pushed out is effective, but the majority of the population refuses to take it becaue they don't trust that Trump made the correct judgement call, then it'll be disastorous for the public. I think the FDA is only looking for 50% efficacy for the vaccine and doesn't require USA results for it(brazila or SA results would work).

generally true, but not exactly. phase 2 trials are too small to see safety effects in small populations. phase III isn't only an effectiveness trial. hell, sometimes drugs have to be taken off market after they pass trials because of unacceptable side effects in some subpops that they couldn't detect...or because of long lasting effects like cancer (though obviously this wouldnt be caught in a phase 3). also phase IIs are generally health populations.

you're right on 50% effectiveness...its fairly low but probably makes sense for an early vaccine.

this is going to be a mess no matter what becuase its never been done on a scale like this, with public trust in vaccines (bad) and the admin (with good reason) at an all time low. and this vaccine seems like it actually can knock you on your ass for a day or two.

Thanks for the clarifications.

to others: Would you take the same vaccine thats approved in UK in october, but not approved by the FDA in october? Woudl you take the vaccine that Trump pushed in October at the end of November?

It has nothing to do with where it came from. It has to do with the process. If the UK did it properly, I would take their vaccine. Same with Trump, but I would give him zero credit for it since he's pushed back against science every step of the way

jamiethekiller wrote:

JUburton wrote:

jamiethekiller wrote:two both points:

we've seen that anytime Trump pushes something it get SUCH a large backlash that it won't get the credit it may deserve. There is nothing that Trump can do that the left/center will accept as correct. All vaccines that are viable are into phase 3 trials and that means that they're safe to consume. They may have some bad side effects, but overall, they're pretty safe. If the Vaccine that gets pushed out is effective, but the majority of the population refuses to take it becaue they don't trust that Trump made the correct judgement call, then it'll be disastorous for the public. I think the FDA is only looking for 50% efficacy for the vaccine and doesn't require USA results for it(brazila or SA results would work).

generally true, but not exactly. phase 2 trials are too small to see safety effects in small populations. phase III isn't only an effectiveness trial. hell, sometimes drugs have to be taken off market after they pass trials because of unacceptable side effects in some subpops that they couldn't detect...or because of long lasting effects like cancer (though obviously this wouldnt be caught in a phase 3). also phase IIs are generally health populations.

you're right on 50% effectiveness...its fairly low but probably makes sense for an early vaccine.

this is going to be a mess no matter what becuase its never been done on a scale like this, with public trust in vaccines (bad) and the admin (with good reason) at an all time low. and this vaccine seems like it actually can knock you on your ass for a day or two.

Thanks for the clarifications.

to others: Would you take the same vaccine thats approved in UK in october, but not approved by the FDA in october? Woudl you take the vaccine that Trump pushed in October at the end of November?

I agree with MB, it's about how we arrive at the end result. If the last six months haven't allowed us to be somewhat skeptical of Trump and his response to the virus, then I don't know how I can help you. They haven't been consistent other than being consistently weak in the face of crisis and color me skeptical that Trump would want another October surprise because he's trailing in the polls just like he did in August 2016.

A vaccine would be a life-changing event for my family. We all know you've moved on because you did your part and have some serious redass about things not returning to normal. It is tiring.

Approval for a vaccine definitely dropping on Nov 2

Stay_Disappointed wrote:Approval for a vaccine definitely dropping on Nov 2

People start voting next week

piece: please don't put words in my mouth, i think the admin has screwed up just about everything from the start. I'm just curious about what people would do if a vaccine thats approved based on UK/SA other country results was 'rushed' through the FDA process. There's going to be results in another month or two that are based off of other countries population responses. JU can fact check me, but i think the two best candidates are much further along in other countries than the US. Also curious where people stand on taking a rushed vaccine a month or two later after release. I thought JU had a good response on waiting for more peer review reports to come out. Which, like i said, could end up being a disaster if the vaccine was actually effective(for all the reasons stated by TV and others).

I'm not sure i'd get the vaccine(or even allowed to get it), but i'd certainly hope that all my older/elderly family were able to get it as soon as it was allowable.

I don't think "people" will decide one way or the other. I think persons will decide whether a vaccine has as enough foundation in safety an efficacy to give it a try. Anyone who's taking into account what the Trump administration has to say about those factors, pro or con, is a fool.

shit, i thought this stuff only happened to left-center liberals like myself on BSG.

https://medium.com/the-forgotten-generation/submit-for-ultraliberal-reconditioning-d8b474ff36af

good read and oh so true, well at least the majority.

jamiethekiller wrote:piece: please don't put words in my mouth, i think the admin has screwed up just about everything from the start. I'm just curious about what people would do if a vaccine thats approved based on UK/SA other country results was 'rushed' through the FDA process. There's going to be results in another month or two that are based off of other countries population responses. JU can fact check me, but i think the two best candidates are much further along in other countries than the US. Also curious where people stand on taking a rushed vaccine a month or two later after release. I thought JU had a good response on waiting for more peer review reports to come out. Which, like i said, could end up being a disaster if the vaccine was actually effective(for all the reasons stated by TV and others).

I'm not sure i'd get the vaccine(or even allowed to get it), but i'd certainly hope that all my older/elderly family were able to get it as soon as it was allowable.

Fair enough and I took your interpretation of a disaster wrong. I don't trust Trump who is using this for nothing more than political reasons, he doesn't give a shit if it actually works. My hope is the average American doesn't equate vaccine = this is over because Trump will absolutely tell them that is the case.

The rollout will be bungled like everyone they touch and do agree it will be a disaster if it is effective because the people who need it most won't get the vaccine.

Trump is certainly doing it for political reasons but I think it's also important to remember he's incredibly dumb and probably doesn't know how the vaccine clearance process works. He probably thinks this is like one of his crappy buildings where if he's a big enough dick to the construction company it gets built faster.

so it's not a lie if you believe it jerry?

azrider wrote:shit, i thought this stuff only happened to left-center liberals like myself on BSG.

https://medium.com/the-forgotten-generation/submit-for-ultraliberal-reconditioning-d8b474ff36af

good read and oh so true, well at least the majority.

There's nothing wrong with look at multiple sources normally, but I feel like there's an increasing number of complete BS sources and most of them lean hard right. I can't watch Fox because the lies and half-truths are constant. It's almost impossible to parse the truth from fiction. For sure there are sources on the left, but I don't think they are nearly as filled with the lying and propaganda. That doesn't mean they don't have their biases, but it's not overwhelming and there's much less outright lying. Liberals do not have their own version of widespread right wing talk radio, which has to be the worst.

TLDR: The extent of media bias is not the same on the right and left, so people shouldn't treat them like they are.