Politics: 2 All Beef Patties, Shutdown on a Bob Mueller Bun

by **jerseyhoya** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:27:47

JUburton wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:
JUburton wrote:If this Buzzfeed piece is legit, then that is it. Probably the first real 'WE GOT HIM'.

Yeah, would say borderline 2nd depending on what evidence there is surrounding Trump's instructions to Cohen in paying off McDougal and Stormy.

Starting to see a little early pushback focusing (IF IT IS TRUE AND THE LYING, LIBERAL BUZZFEED HAS IT RIGHT) on the fact that Cohen's Trump influenced lies were before Congress, not a grand jury or other Judicial sphere. Which I'm not sure legally if there's a difference in punishment between lying to Congress and lying to a grand jury, but think there is in reality. People lie to Congress, Congress lies, everyone in politics is a liar, etc. therefore it's no surprise Trump told Cohen to lie about something that never even came to fruition anyway! How can you impeach Trump for something everyone does! Eric Holder! It's not a sturdy limb to hold onto, but if you're committed to the play you might grasp for it.
Pretty sure if's very much illegal to lie under oath to Congress. Roger Clemens was indicted for it!

[I'm not sure if you were saying you weren't sure or if the Trump defenders were]

I'm saying I'm not sure if legally the punishment for perjury in Congressional testimony is the same as perjury before a grand jury or in a trial.

by **CFP** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:29:44

Maybe we should ask Michael Cohen, he's a lawyer

by **TomatoPie** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:35:49

CalvinBall wrote:Trump isnt making it to re election

I've been saying that since Nov 2016. I was wildly optimistic at first - I though his sheer incompetence would get him gone in 150 days. I never imagined the GOP powers and financial backers would let him drag the entire party down with him.

It still boggles my mind - we all knew how this would end - we just didn't know when.

Why are 53 house Republicans and 42 GOP Senators in favor of lifting sanctions on a Russian criminal oligarch? How many of them must also be caught up in Russian money scandals/crimes?

by **Grotewold** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:44:13

TomatoPie wrote:Why are 53 house Republicans and 42 GOP Senators in favor of lifting sanctions on a Russian criminal oligarch?

Same reason the religious right is fine with the NRA and massive income inequality, Wall Street the abortion rhetoric and rampant racism.

The right forms a unified front -- logic or laws be damned -- to win on their pet issue.

by **TomatoPie** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:44:43

Many are seizing on "If Buzzfeed article proves accurate, Trump is done" but this is just a pimple on the butt on a giant orange baboon.

Suborning perury is enough to take down a human, but Trump lies 50 times a day. Trump telling Cohen to lie? Just boys beings boys. Senate wouldn't convict on that, just as the Senate wouldn't convict Clinton for lying about Monica. Yes, this is MUCH worse but the bar is much higher (lower?)

Anyhow, Trump's list of crimes is long and has much more serious stuff on it. Obstruction and perjury still down the list.

For me, #1 is the quid-pro-quo of directing US policy in Russia's favor due to deals with Putin or fear of kompromat.

#2 is decades of money laundering - Trump's entire mob operation.

Even his countless emoluments violations rise above his obstruction and perjury.

He will end his life in jail. His crimes are too severe for mere resignation and pardon.

by **thephan** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:44:52

TomatoPie wrote:Why are 53 house Republicans and 42 GOP Senators in favor of lifting sanctions on a Russian criminal oligarch? How many of them must also be caught up in Russian money scandals/crimes?

This is a question that merits more discussion, and has been plowed under with all the other chaff. Ignore the criminal oligarch and pump more AOC/Nancy hyperbola. Its smart, but nothing new from the playbook. There is a serious question about that vote that deserves honest answers by at least 51 of those votes (that allows for two whack jobs to ignore).

by **TomatoPie** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:45:56

Grotewold wrote:
TomatoPie wrote:Why are 53 house Republicans and 42 GOP Senators in favor of lifting sanctions on a Russian criminal oligarch?

Same reason the religious right is fine with the NRA and massive income inequality, Wall Street the abortion rhetoric and rampant racism.

The right forms a unified front -- logic or laws be damned -- to win on their pet issue.

I agree - but is there an issue or a pet here, other than "I'm with Trump?"

by **Grotewold** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:48:03

TomatoPie wrote:I agree - but is there an issue or a pet here, other than "I'm with Trump?"

Tax cuts, judges, keeping their seat, owning the libs, idk. But I'd be pretty stunned to see any of them suddenly grow a conscience.

by **pacino** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:48:38

EVERYONE knows the real conspiracy is that Hillary worked with Russia to lose the election so they and the FBI could trap Trump (people believe this).

by **TomatoPie** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:52:45

From the start, I've presumed Pence* was in on all this Rusher stuff. I presumed Trump and Pence both resign or are convicted after impeachment, but not simultaneously. Thus the interim survivor gets to choose a new veep; some milquetoast Jerry Ford that no one hates or fears.

And I figured Mitt would be that guy.

Now Mitt is the new Susan Collins, and he freakin' voted for Deripaska. :twisted:

* Now I'm more inclined to think that Pence skates here; he seems to have deftly insulated himself from the Trump crime family. He and mommy will get to be Mr and Mrs POTUS for a year before getting trounced in 2020.

by **pacino** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:53:27

JUburton wrote:If this Buzzfeed piece is legit, then that is it. Probably the first real 'WE GOT HIM'.

by **thephan** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:13:59

TomatoPie wrote:From the start, I've presumed Pence* was in on all this Rusher stuff. I presumed Trump and Pence both resign or are convicted after impeachment, but not simultaneously. Thus the interim survivor gets to choose a new veep; some milquetoast Jerry Ford that no one hates or fears.

And I figured Mitt would be that guy.

Now Mitt is the new Susan Collins, and he freakin' voted for Deripaska.

* Now I'm more inclined to think that Pence skates here; he seems to have deftly insulated himself from the Trump crime family. He and mommy will get to be Mr and Mrs POTUS for a year before getting trounced in 2020.

Or if all the shit goes down at once, then its Nancy. lol

by **CFP** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:20:44

But what about President Hatch

by **joboggi** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:33:17

If the election was held today what would happen?

The 13 keys to the presidency say

Trump would win.

The 13 keys to the presidency, properly applied are deadly accurate at predicting the winner of the US Presidency.

If Al Gore had faith in that, he would have been declared President. Gore had the votes in Florida, in addition to the National Popular vote. Gore went looking for the votes that were his in the wrong place. The recount was stopped but it would not have named him President because the votes were elsewhere in the state.

If the economy tanks which is probably happening, but we do not want, Trump will lose.

Best not depend of something that we do not want to happen to remove the Donald.

This fascist thing has gone too far.

by **MoBettle** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:45:58

jerseyhoya wrote:
JUburton wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:
JUburton wrote:If this Buzzfeed piece is legit, then that is it. Probably the first real 'WE GOT HIM'.

Yeah, would say borderline 2nd depending on what evidence there is surrounding Trump's instructions to Cohen in paying off McDougal and Stormy.

Starting to see a little early pushback focusing (IF IT IS TRUE AND THE LYING, LIBERAL BUZZFEED HAS IT RIGHT) on the fact that Cohen's Trump influenced lies were before Congress, not a grand jury or other Judicial sphere. Which I'm not sure legally if there's a difference in punishment between lying to Congress and lying to a grand jury, but think there is in reality. People lie to Congress, Congress lies, everyone in politics is a liar, etc. therefore it's no surprise Trump told Cohen to lie about something that never even came to fruition anyway! How can you impeach Trump for something everyone does! Eric Holder! It's not a sturdy limb to hold onto, but if you're committed to the play you might grasp for it.
Pretty sure if's very much illegal to lie under oath to Congress. Roger Clemens was indicted for it!

[I'm not sure if you were saying you weren't sure or if the Trump defenders were]

I'm saying I'm not sure if legally the punishment for perjury in Congressional testimony is the same as perjury before a grand jury or in a trial.

It's a different crime but still a crime:

Lying to congress (or another branch): https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1001
Perjury generally: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1621

Lying to congress actually seems to have the more serious punishment (fine and 5 years vs. fine or 5 years or both)

by **swishnicholson** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:35:00

Interesting that the Buzzfeed Michael Cohen story doesn't show up anywhere on the New York times website other than in the "Europe" section where an article by Reuters is included, where it's included obliquely and with a strong disclaimer.

by **thephan** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:41:06

I did not pay too much attention to the Barr hearing. Somewhere in there was a discussion about his long and deep friendship with Meuller, as well as his deep respect on every vector. This might have come as a surprise to the WH.

by **thephan** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:43:00

Nancy looked at commercial options to get to Afghanistan, but State said that because of the publicity from the WH that there would be grave security concerns for all involved, and it could not recommend travel at this time.

by **TenuredVulture** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 13:04:09

swishnicholson wrote:Interesting that the Buzzfeed Michael Cohen story doesn't show up anywhere on the New York times website other than in the "Europe" section where an article by Reuters is included, where it's included obliquely and with a strong disclaimer.

NY Times, despite Trump's complaints, has been very Trump friendly. Look at the Op Ed page. It's gotten to be pretty worthless over the years. One worst offenders of "both siderism" and "but her e-mails".

by **TenuredVulture** » Fri Jan 18, 2019 13:06:19

You know, I wonder if Russia's ultimate goal was not for Trump to win, but to sow enough doubt in the electoral process to make it basically impossible for Hillary to govern--making her victory appear illegitimate to a sizable chunk of the US population. It seems to me that if Russia's goal was simply to weaken the US that would have been the optimal outcome.

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