Not sure maybe grabbing at a flak jacket is the same as “grabbing breasts.” In fact the jacket is probably why he thought the photo would be funny. Juvenile and offensive, yes, especially viewed 11 years later in this climate. But disqualifying for his job?

And again, where is the line? I bet you could chuck half of Washington (including some women) by this standard. (Which I’d be fine with on some level but seems rash.) I’d sooner just go with broken laws.

Slowhand wrote:Clean up on aisle South Freaking Dakota

Another woman came out to say Bush groped her in 1992

Grotewold wrote:Not sure maybe grabbing at a flak jacket is the same as “grabbing breasts.” In fact the jacket is probably why he thought the photo would be funny. Juvenile and offensive, yes, especially viewed 11 years later in this climate. But disqualifying for his job?

And again, where is the line? I bet you could chuck half of Washington (including some women) by this standard. (Which I’d be fine with on some level but seems rash.) I’d sooner just go with broken laws.

she claims he shoved his tongue down her throat prior to that

it's not just the picture, on which I agree with you

Bottom line, if this stuff came out three years ago it would have had little or no impact. Why should that be massively different today, for an eleven-year-old act, in terms of him losing his job?

Moore and Weinstein and others, on the other hand, broke laws in any era. Clear standard.

nm

pacino wrote:craptastic tax bill passed the House

all the PA Rs voted in the affirmative

I guess Meenan knows he’s out anyway in 18 so fuck it

I may be in a minority of one but I don’t think a legislator or would-be legislator whether it’s Al Franken or Roy Moore should be removed from office or disqualified from running based solely on allegations, no matter how seemingly credible. Until that person is judged guilty of a crime or admits guilt to one I agree with what JH said a few pages ago: it’s up to the voters.

My view is not in any way meant to attack the credibility of any of the accusers, it comes simply from my view that no one should have his or her life and career ruined based solely on allegations. It’s just too slippery a slope and creates an environment which practically begs for false accusers to come forth in an attempt to ruin someone. As toxic an environment as sexual abuse is, an environment inviting false accusations is no better.

The atmosphere we are in right now is hysterical. Any accusations brought forth in this atmosphere are likely to be given more credibility than they might otherwise receive.

jerseyhoya wrote:Fox has Jones up 50%-42%.

What a world

Obama 52%
Trump 49%

Favorability ratings in Alabama, per Fox News Poll. What a world indeed.

+1

JFLNYC wrote:I may be in a minority of one but I don’t think a legislator or would-be legislator whether it’s Al Franken or Roy Moore should be removed from office or disqualified from running based solely on allegations, no matter how seemingly credible. Until that person is judged guilty of a crime or admits guilt to one I agree with what JH said a few pages ago: it’s up to the voters.

My view is not in any way meant to attack the credibility of any of the accusers, it comes simply from my view that no one should have his or her life and career ruined based solely on allegations. It’s just too slippery a slope and creates an environment which practically begs for false accusers to come forth in an attempt to ruin someone. As toxic an environment as sexual abuse is, an environment inviting false accusations is no better.

The atmosphere we are in right now is hysterical. Any accusations brought forth in this atmosphere are likely to be given more credibility than they might otherwise receive.

I disagree. There is a moral standard that our representatives should meet. If there are credible allegations of sexual assault or predatory behavior than you should be disqualified from holding office. Your concerns of a slippery slope is well taken, and unfortunately there is no clear line of delineation. Just because we cannot write the standard does not mean we shouldn't judge each situation case-by-case. There is a photo of Al Franken groping or miming groping a sleeping woman. It doesn't matter if she was in a flak jacket, a bikini, a sweater, whatever. At best it is juvenile, but it's still sexual assault and unbecoming of a US representative.

Your last sentence my have credence when it comes to some future accusation, but we have a picture for Franken and several well vetted accusations and "common knowledge" on Moore.

Weren’t women burned at the stake because it was common knowledge they were witches? I’m extremely wary of common knowledge. Much more comfortable with established facts especially when it comes to condemning people.

This is common knowledge (Roy Moore banned from malls/a creep) combined with several well vetted allegations.

as poor as the results have been lately i still prefer the people picking their representatives than their peers picking them

slugsrbad wrote:Your concerns of a slippery slope is well taken, and unfortunately there is no clear line of delineation. Just because we cannot write the standard does not mean we shouldn't judge each situation case-by-case. There is a photo of Al Franken groping or miming groping a sleeping woman. It doesn't matter if she was in a flak jacket, a bikini, a sweater, whatever

I respect where you’re coming from, but this is highly contradictory

Frankens lousy taste in dad jeans should DQ him for something.

From “A Man for All Seasons”:

Thomas More: “...And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned around on you--where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast--man's laws, not God's--and if you cut them down...d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.”

slugsrbad wrote:

JFLNYC wrote:I may be in a minority of one but I don’t think a legislator or would-be legislator whether it’s Al Franken or Roy Moore should be removed from office or disqualified from running based solely on allegations, no matter how seemingly credible. Until that person is judged guilty of a crime or admits guilt to one I agree with what JH said a few pages ago: it’s up to the voters.

I disagree. There is a moral standard that our representatives should meet.

Isn’t that the point though? It should be up to the people voting to determine what morals represent them. I think the question of illegality is separate from the morality issue.

This specifically is kind of a weird case because sexual assault is illegal, but without a conviction, where do we go? Franken didn’t say “yea, that all happened exactly like she said.” He invited an investigation. Denying someone a chance to defend themselves and forcing them to step down feels undemocratic/unamerican.

It’s also tricky compared to the Moore issue because while Moore’s allegations are leaps and bounds worse than Franken’s, the voters of Alabama can still opt to vote against Moore. Franken, as a sitting senator during a non-election year, can’t be ousted/kept out by the voters of Minnesota.

I don’t know what the outcome would be in a fair world. Or this world.

swishnicholson wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:

Matt Friedman‏ @MattFriedmanNJ
Menendez: "To those who were digging my political grave so they could jump into my seat, I know who you are and I won’t forget you.” cc @bobtorricelli

He's really gonna try to run for re-election, huh

New Jersey and Bob Menendez. Perfect together.

So the incoming gov, new Assembly speaker, Sweeney, George/Don Norcross have all endorsed Menendez for re-election already this afternoon.

Wonder if anyone in the House delegation is gonna take a swing at him. He'll have $$ and most every line, but god he should be vulnerable.

Philippe Reines‏ @PhilippeReines
Ken Starr spent $70 million on a consensual blowjob. Senate voted to keep POTUS WJC. But not enough for you @SenGillibrand? Over 20 yrs you took the Clintons’ endorsements, money, and seat. Hypocrite.

Interesting strategy for 2020 primaries. Best of luck.

hahahahahahahahaha oh man