Phillies realistically in it for Halladay?

by **jerseyhoya** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 01:58:52

Did we get Halladay yet?

Website · by **Wolfgang622** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 02:18:46

I hate when I come home and I see this thread at the top of the list, and I think, "Oh boy! News!" and then there isn't any.

by **philliesphhan** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 03:41:13

mozartpc27 wrote:I hate when I come home and I see this thread at the top of the list, and I think, "Oh boy! News!" and then there isn't any.

Then you go and bump it yourself and do the same thing to others. It's a vicious cycle.

by **LongDrive** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 07:57:46

HillMD wrote:I find it hard to believe that Lee - the type of guy that he is - would tell Jayson Stark that there is "no chance" that the Phillies give him his money, and that he won't give them any discount. Stark probably heard that from one of his great sources, who also told him that Feliz would likely return.

I have to agree with you. I can't see him saying this either, especially since they probably haven't even started to discuss an extension with him yet. He's still a year away from becoming a FA. Let's see what kind of year he has and if he stays healthy. He could pull a Cole Hamels 2009 on us (I don't think so).

by **Wizlah** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 08:50:31

HillMD wrote:I find it hard to believe that Lee - the type of guy that he is - would tell Jayson Stark that there is "no chance" that the Phillies give him his money, and that he won't give them any discount.

I can say in all honesty it's not apparent to me what type of guy Cliff Lee is. And even if I did know, why would that reflect on his wish to optimise his earnings? A players personality has got close to fuck all to do with these decisions. The major governing factors are

a) the way the FA market is structured
b) the wish for pay to reflect performance as much as possible

If cliff lee is looking for a CC style contract, it's more likely to do with lee thinking he's every bit as good as CC, and lee living and working in an environment which says that if you're good enough, you're entitled to be paid the same as the other guy.

Get over it.

Fucks sake.

by **Stay_Disappointed** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 09:47:27

Wizlah wrote:
HillMD wrote:I find it hard to believe that Lee - the type of guy that he is - would tell Jayson Stark that there is "no chance" that the Phillies give him his money, and that he won't give them any discount.

I can say in all honesty it's not apparent to me what type of guy Cliff Lee is. And even if I did know, why would that reflect on his wish to optimise his earnings? A players personality has got close to $#@! all to do with these decisions. The major governing factors are

a) the way the FA market is structured
b) the wish for pay to reflect performance as much as possible

If cliff lee is looking for a CC style contract, it's more likely to do with lee thinking he's every bit as good as CC, and lee living and working in an environment which says that if you're good enough, you're entitled to be paid the same as the other guy.

Get over it.

$#@! sake.

Or maybe its because Lee and CC are such good friends?

Maybe someone should check out what kind of guy Lee's agent is..

by **lethal** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:09:06

Warszawa wrote:
Wizlah wrote:
HillMD wrote:I find it hard to believe that Lee - the type of guy that he is - would tell Jayson Stark that there is "no chance" that the Phillies give him his money, and that he won't give them any discount.

I can say in all honesty it's not apparent to me what type of guy Cliff Lee is. And even if I did know, why would that reflect on his wish to optimise his earnings? A players personality has got close to $#@! all to do with these decisions. The major governing factors are

a) the way the FA market is structured
b) the wish for pay to reflect performance as much as possible

If cliff lee is looking for a CC style contract, it's more likely to do with lee thinking he's every bit as good as CC, and lee living and working in an environment which says that if you're good enough, you're entitled to be paid the same as the other guy.

Get over it.

$#@! sake.

Or maybe its because Lee and CC are such good friends?

Maybe someone should check out what kind of guy Lee's agent is..

Lee has the same agent as AJ Burnett I believe.

by **JFLNYC** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:18:12

Lee wants a "Sabathia type deal" and will not give the Phillies any type of hometown discount to keep him. He said there is "no chance" the Phillies will give that to him, and they aren't even in the same ballpark in terms of any facet of the contract. He fully intends to hit free agency after next year.
-Jayson Stark

It's a case of confusing antecedents. I believe this is a quote from someone who had just heard Stark's report. The first "he" refers to Stark saying there's "no chance." Lee didn't say it. The second "he" does refer to Lee. So the report really is:

Lee wants a "Sabathia type deal" and will not give the Phillies any type of hometown discount to keep him. Stark said there is "no chance" the Phillies will give that to him, and they aren't even in the same ballpark in terms of any facet of the contract. Lee fully intends to hit free agency after next year.
-Jayson Stark

by **VFB** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 13:59:18

Lee wants a "Sabathia type deal" and will not give the Phillies any type of hometown discount to keep him. He said there is "too many latinos" and he fully intends to hit free agency after next year.
-Jayson Stark

by **Bakestar** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 14:09:44

No one is saying not to pursue Halladay and to make a reasonable or even a little bit of an ambitious deal to get him. I don't want to gut the farm system for him, nor do I think we would have to. Anything that let's us keep one of Brown or Drabek, and one or more of D'Arnaud, Taylor, and May, works for me.

by **JFLNYC** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 14:19:17

So there's another way to create some room for Halladay's salary: Trade Lee. I know that's not the vision we all have of the two of them at the top of the Phils' rotation but it may be the best possible solution to have at least one of them beyond 2010.

Lee's value has to be at a peak right now coming off his excellent, high-profile performance in the post-season. It makes it easier for the PTB to take on Halladay's salary by taking $9MM off the books and you'd probably get a nice haul for Lee, which would help soften the blow of losing whomever we lose in a Halladay trade.

Since the Phils don't have the same misgivings as Toronto about trading to the AL East, you could probably get a nice bidding war going between the Yanks and Sawks. The Yankees are apparently so hot for him that you might end up getting Joba from the Yanks or Bucholz from the Sawks.

Instead of getting the two draft picks when he leaves, you get more advanced prospects now, which could both help in the short term and making re-tooling in 2012 quicker.

Your rotation for 2010 could look like:

Halladay
Hamels
Blanton
Joba
Moyer/Kendrick

Blanton would be gone for 2011, but Drabek would probably be ready. You'd have 4 really good starters through 2012 and 3 in 2013, even if Hamels leaves.

by **lightsout54** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 14:33:29

I hate that option....unless maybe its bucholz...but still we don't have as good a chance of winning this year as we would with lee.

by **JFLNYC** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 14:42:20

lightsout54 wrote:I hate that option....unless maybe its bucholz...but still we don't have as good a chance of winning this year as we would with lee.

You mean not as good a chance as we'd have with both Lee and Halladay. But there's a very real possibility that, from a payroll standpoint, you can only have one of them. Wouldn't you prefer the guy (Halladay) who'd presumably be signed past 2010 than the guy who wouldn't (Lee)?

by **FTN** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 15:00:11

id prefer we keep lee and just sign halladay after 2010 if thats the option

by **JFLNYC** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 15:05:27

I would, too, except that I'm assuming that Halladay gets traded before that and, as has been reported, requires a contract extension to waive his NTC. So you end up with neither after 2010.

by **The Dude** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 15:19:32

I remember Halladay's agent saying an extensions wasn't necessary for a trade, b/c Halladay wanted to see what the new team was like before signing with them

by **lightsout54** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 15:27:38

JFLNYC wrote:
lightsout54 wrote:I hate that option....unless maybe its bucholz...but still we don't have as good a chance of winning this year as we would with lee.

You mean not as good a chance as we'd have with both Lee and Halladay. But there's a very real possibility that, from a payroll standpoint, you can only have one of them. Wouldn't you prefer the guy (Halladay) who'd presumably be signed past 2010 than the guy who wouldn't (Lee)?

Right. I agree with the point of signability. However we are set up to win right now. I'd like to keep Lee get Halladay for this year. Bring back 1 and then piece what we can. If we have 1 of the 2 for 2011...we're still in ok shape.

by **philliesphhan** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 15:41:54

The Dude wrote:I remember Halladay's agent saying an extensions wasn't necessary for a trade, b/c Halladay wanted to see what the new team was like before signing with them

That was the report at the trading deadline. More recent reports say that he'd prefer an extension.

by **lightsout54** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 15:59:40

I think an interesting point to be kept in mind here is that in the next two years we are no longer just contending within the division we are contending against the best in the NL and a possibly Series return. I had a friend scoff at this line of thinking but hey it's been two years in a row that we've been there, show me the other team that can say that. So while I was against it initially...go get Roy. Doc, Lee, Hamels/Blanton is the best chance of winning. Anything can Happen in a short series, but if you put the best product possible on the field, that's the best you can do. We didn't do that in some ways this year(bench, bullpen to some extent) .

So you get those 3 at the top of the rotation this year. The next year you sign 1 of Lee/Doc and collect picks on the other. Romero, moyer, Durbz i believe and Dobbs are off the books. Bring up Drabek as a cheap arm out of the pen with swing and miss stuff or to fill the rotation.

by **JFLNYC** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 18:30:42

Of course that's the way you'd want to go from a talent standpoint. The problem is that, without reducing payroll, you're going to end up at $150MM - $155MM. Although Floppy and I have already decided we're willing to do that for one year, we've yet to get the concurrence of Phillies ownership. :lol:

I hope they do so, but I think you need a less expensive Plan B.

That Plan B could be simply not to acquire Halladay. But it looks right now as though Lee has no intention of re-signing here and Halladay, if traded, will get a contract extension so he won't be available to sign as a FA. Unless you get Halladay now, you will have neither after 2010. So the point I'm trying to make is that, if: (a) you can't afford both this year; and (b) you want one of them after 2010, the Plan B might very well be to trade Lee and acquire Halladay before he's gone elsewhere and signed a long-term deal.

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