what's the deal with Scutaro and Mcdonald's contracts? rube should acquire one of them as sidekicks to Halladay.

VFB wrote:what's the deal with Scutaro and Mcdonald's contracts? rube should acquire one of them as sidekicks to Halladay.

Scutaro is a FA

MattS wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Happ for Haladay straight up.

Sadly, this is less unreasonable than you think but would never get done because it wouldn't sound good to the media and fans. It's five years of Happ for one year of Halladay. It's still not enough but it's enough that it should ruin their ability to get a top prospect in the process.

Halladay should be worth one Top 25 prospect with maybe some fringy guys in the low minors on the side, or just a bunch of B prospects. Think Sabathia to Brewers or Johan to Mets.

well, the Phillies have to unload some payroll asap then

Warszawa wrote:

MattS wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Happ for Haladay straight up.

Sadly, this is less unreasonable than you think but would never get done because it wouldn't sound good to the media and fans. It's five years of Happ for one year of Halladay. It's still not enough but it's enough that it should ruin their ability to get a top prospect in the process.

Halladay should be worth one Top 25 prospect with maybe some fringy guys in the low minors on the side, or just a bunch of B prospects. Think Sabathia to Brewers or Johan to Mets.

well, the Phillies have to unload some payroll asap then

Moyer needs a visit from Tony Soprano

MattS wrote: no one expected him to actually get better than he already was.

i did

no really

you could tell by the glint in his eye & the grit on his breath

MattS wrote:

philliesphhan wrote:P layers rarely show loyalty to the fans though Utley did give us a discount

utley's contract turned out to be a discount. given the projections of his career at the time, it was fair. no one expected him to actually get better than he already was.

His last 3 seasons aren't all that different from his 2006 season. Who didn't expect him to get better or at least continue on an equally high level? I think everyone in the world had high hopes for the guy coming off his 2006 season when he was 27.

Given that his stats haven't changed much, you really think these results were unexpected?

iladelph53 wrote:

MattS wrote:

philliesphhan wrote:P layers rarely show loyalty to the fans though Utley did give us a discount

utley's contract turned out to be a discount. given the projections of his career at the time, it was fair. no one expected him to actually get better than he already was.

His last 3 seasons aren't all that different from his 2006 season. Who didn't expect him to get better or at least continue on an equally high level? I think everyone in the world had high hopes for the guy coming off his 2006 season when he was 27.

Given that his stats haven't changed much, you really think these results were unexpected?

27 is usually a guy's peak and guys who debut late and especially second basemen generally do decline after that somewhat.

in utley's age 28-30, utley posted a higher ISO each year than he did at 27, improved his walk rate in the last two years, somehow got hit by more pitches to increases his OBP further, and most importantly, his defense got way better too-- he went from being one of the better 2B in the league to the best.

generally, you have to consider regression to the mean, especially with 2B. a few years ago, many were thinking he would need to be moved to LF or 1B. he's now the premier defensive 2B in the league who hits for more power with more on-base skill than he did before when every model would have suggested that he would start to do less given that he was 27 and had debuted late in his career. it's incredibly atypical and it's the reason that the phillies basically got a 7-year $85MM deal on a player who (even discounting for the arbitration payouts) looks to have been worth $150MM or more during that time frame. it makes the rollins contract look reasonable, and those two contracts are the reason we don't need to spend like the yankees to be as good as we are.

MattS wrote: it's incredibly atypical and it's the reason that the phillies basically got a 7-year $85MM deal on a player who (even discounting for the arbitration payouts) looks to have been worth $150MM or more during that time frame. it makes the rollins contract look reasonable, and those two contracts are the reason we don't need to spend like the yankees to be as good as we are.

yea so much of that production on a practically amputated labrum hip

MattS wrote:

iladelph53 wrote:

MattS wrote:

philliesphhan wrote:P layers rarely show loyalty to the fans though Utley did give us a discount

utley's contract turned out to be a discount. given the projections of his career at the time, it was fair. no one expected him to actually get better than he already was.

His last 3 seasons aren't all that different from his 2006 season. Who didn't expect him to get better or at least continue on an equally high level? I think everyone in the world had high hopes for the guy coming off his 2006 season when he was 27.

Given that his stats haven't changed much, you really think these results were unexpected?

27 is usually a guy's peak and guys who debut late and especially second basemen generally do decline after that somewhat.

in utley's age 28-30, utley posted a higher ISO each year than he did at 27, improved his walk rate in the last two years, somehow got hit by more pitches to increases his OBP further, and most importantly, his defense got way better too-- he went from being one of the better 2B in the league to the best.

generally, you have to consider regression to the mean, especially with 2B. a few years ago, many were thinking he would need to be moved to LF or 1B. he's now the premier defensive 2B in the league who hits for more power with more on-base skill than he did before when every model would have suggested that he would start to do less given that he was 27 and had debuted late in his career. it's incredibly atypical and it's the reason that the phillies basically got a 7-year $85MM deal on a player who (even discounting for the arbitration payouts) looks to have been worth $150MM or more during that time frame. it makes the rollins contract look reasonable, and those two contracts are the reason we don't need to spend like the yankees to be as good as we are.

I read stuff like this, and I know I should take back just about every negative thing I've said about the front office over the last 4 years.

MattS wrote:

iladelph53 wrote:

MattS wrote:

philliesphhan wrote:P layers rarely show loyalty to the fans though Utley did give us a discount

utley's contract turned out to be a discount. given the projections of his career at the time, it was fair. no one expected him to actually get better than he already was.

His last 3 seasons aren't all that different from his 2006 season. Who didn't expect him to get better or at least continue on an equally high level? I think everyone in the world had high hopes for the guy coming off his 2006 season when he was 27.

Given that his stats haven't changed much, you really think these results were unexpected?

27 is usually a guy's peak and guys who debut late and especially second basemen generally do decline after that somewhat.

in utley's age 28-30, utley posted a higher ISO each year than he did at 27, improved his walk rate in the last two years, somehow got hit by more pitches to increases his OBP further, and most importantly, his defense got way better too-- he went from being one of the better 2B in the league to the best.

generally, you have to consider regression to the mean, especially with 2B. a few years ago, many were thinking he would need to be moved to LF or 1B. he's now the premier defensive 2B in the league who hits for more power with more on-base skill than he did before when every model would have suggested that he would start to do less given that he was 27 and had debuted late in his career. it's incredibly atypical and it's the reason that the phillies basically got a 7-year $85MM deal on a player who (even discounting for the arbitration payouts) looks to have been worth $150MM or more during that time frame. it makes the rollins contract look reasonable, and those two contracts are the reason we don't need to spend like the yankees to be as good as we are.

Yes. I remember reading Bill James many years ago and him making that point about 2Bmen getting hurt a lot and many having truncated careers. I'm not sure if the issue was ever studied but it always made sense to me.

Utley has been pretty awesome because he never looked to be a superstar type prospect as I recall. He looked like he might be a pretty good player if things went well. A guy with good power for a middle infielder but maybe a guy who wouldn't get on base all that well. And a 2Bman who might not be all that hot with the glove. At the age of 25 he hit .266/.308/.468.

And now look what we have. One of the top players in all of baseball. I don't think you see that all that often. The great ones -- Mays; Mantle; Morgan; Pujols -- those guys all seem to debut at the age of 20-22 or so and are established stars well before the age of 25. Utley is pretty amazing to me.

He's a power hitting 2b. Do you know how rare that is?

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say that this thread has been a great read.

Bakestar wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:

Ellen Hollin Krugman
Give up Hamels!!
26 minutes ago · Report

Kevin Richmond
no trade hamels and jason taylor for halliday.

When you posted it initially I thought you were just foolin around making up a person

No

No that's real

Sweet jesus

TenuredVulture wrote:He's a power hitting 2b. Do you know how rare that is?

The only other one in Phils history was Juan Samuel I guess. He hit 28 home runs one year and slugged .502. But he had a lot of years with slg pcts. less than .400 which surprised me. He also was a pretty bad 2Bman and he didn't get on bas all that well and he didn't last long as a regular.

I guess 39 year old Joe Morgan was another one but he was not the same as a Phillies.

TenuredVulture wrote:He's a power hitting 2b. Do you know how rare that is?

And he's like, totally hot, which is important to me.

Philly the Kid wrote:

Warszawa wrote:

MattS wrote:

TenuredVulture wrote:Happ for Haladay straight up.

Sadly, this is less unreasonable than you think but would never get done because it wouldn't sound good to the media and fans. It's five years of Happ for one year of Halladay. It's still not enough but it's enough that it should ruin their ability to get a top prospect in the process.

Halladay should be worth one Top 25 prospect with maybe some fringy guys in the low minors on the side, or just a bunch of B prospects. Think Sabathia to Brewers or Johan to Mets.

well, the Phillies have to unload some payroll asap then

Moyer needs a visit from Tony Soprano

Dr. Kevorkian is out of jail..

Seriously, they need to make this unrealistic thing happen. I was going to buy a jersey if the Phillies won the WS. Well, they didn't. But I still have the money. Get Halladay and I'm at the Majestic Clubhouse store inside of twenty minutes.

What if a team in this situation set up a Paypal account

So I could give them money to get Halladay? Or just buy the jersey without leaving my house? I live a twenty minute walk from the Majestic Store, and if I get it there I don't have to wait for shipping. They get Halladay, I'll want my new Phillies jersey NOW.

smitty wrote:The only other one in Phils history was Juan Samuel I guess. He hit 28 home runs one year and slugged .502. But he had a lot of years with slg pcts. less than .400 which surprised me. He also was a pretty bad 2Bman and he didn't get on bas all that well and he didn't last long as a regular.

I still have no idea why he's in the Phils' HOF. Has our history really been that horrid?