mcare89 wrote:

Rev_Beezer wrote:Really good roundtable discussion on The Athletic conducted by Doug Glanville regarding race.

Just wondering - does anybody else think Jimmy Rollins would be held in more esteem if he were a white man?

Especially given the idol worship that many give To Chase. I love the man, but Jimmy is seen in rural PA as a cocky black guy. He was an amazing shortstop for many years. It’s a shame.

I don't think there's any question about that.

Absolutely. He’s an all time Phillies. He won a fucking NL MVP because he guaranteed we’d beat the Mets in ST and he fucking made it happen to give us our first playoff berth in 14 years and all anyone wants to talk about is how he didn’t hustle.

So now the other part of this: is Chase revered too highly because he is white? I mean, in many’s eyes, he is THE hero of 2007-2010. I’m not saying he’s not a prime piece, but he gets the recognition Ryan and Jimmy don’t.

Chases stone cold approach and consistency was on another level and ultimately I think that's where the standard was set. He led by example, his play did the talking, he spoke when it mattered.

/posted by a white male

Rev_Beezer wrote:So now the other part of this: is Chase revered too highly because he is white? I mean, in many’s eyes, he is THE hero of 2007-2010. I’m not saying he’s not a prime piece, but he gets the recognition Ryan and Jimmy don’t.

Absolutely. It's not to say he's not deserving of the recognition, but I think you'd have to be incredibly naive to think that it's not at least in part because he's white.

The prime difference between the two is that with Chase, his flaws were either never examined or always explained away, whereas with Jimmy and Ryan, they were always magnified.

It's more about OBP, OPS, and defensive position than race: OBP's: 410, 380, 397, 387. Jimmy was my favorite player, but Chase made outs in way fewer of his ABs than the other guys. It always seemed he'd find a way to get on or knock guys in because he had way fewer bad ABs than Jimmy or Ryan. The baseball world was very post-Moneyball then, and lots of fans really appreciated the guy who produced the fewest outs.

Chase's OPS+ was higher than Howard's over that period of time and he played excellent defense at a crucial defensive position, while Howard was below average at the easiest defensive position. And Rollins was just as good defensively, but his offensive numbers were 20% below Chase's.

Love Jimmy, but Chase deserves the recognition.

phillychuck wrote:It's more about OBP, OPS, and defensive position than race: OBP's: 410, 380, 397, 387. Jimmy was my favorite player, but Chase made outs in way fewer of his ABs than the other guys. It always seemed he'd find a way to get on or knock guys in because he had way fewer bad ABs than Jimmy or Ryan. The baseball world was very post-Moneyball then, and lots of fans really appreciated the guy who produced the fewest outs.

Chase's OPS+ was higher than Howard's over that period of time and he played excellent defense at a crucial defensive position, while Howard was below average at the easiest defensive position. And Rollins was just as good defensively, but his offensive numbers were 20% below Chase's.

Love Jimmy, but Chase deserves the recognition.

Yeah, if there's one thing that Philadelphia fans have always valued in any sport, it's Moneyball analytics.

When you talk about Chase Utley with almost any Phillies fan, they just can't stop gushing about his OPS+.

OMG

There are some Philly fans who got analytics, even then. We're not all troglodytes. A lot of the online fan community was very analytics-savvy.

The folks that "watched the games" saw a hitter that was offensively as good for the most part as Ryan Howard and better defensively at a more important position, and a hitter who was significantly better than JR offensively, even though Jimmy was arguably just as good a defender at a more important position, but the hitting difference was substantial. People can love Utley without being biased. I preferred Jimmy b/c of his personality and swagger, but that's a subjective, personal preference. I have to admit Chase was a better player.

Rev_Beezer wrote:So now the other part of this: is Chase revered too highly because he is white? I mean, in many’s eyes, he is THE hero of 2007-2010. I’m not saying he’s not a prime piece, but he gets the recognition Ryan and Jimmy don’t.

Absolutely. 75% of it because of 3 words - "World $#@! Champions"

In the end they're both too revered because of the team success but there's no doubt Jimmy's legend suffers because of his skin color.

Uncle Milty wrote:In the end they're both too revered because of the team success but there's no doubt Jimmy's legend suffers because of his skin color.

And also because he had a 99ops+ during an era of the golden age for shortstops. Lest we also forget bsg’s own “bad jimmy” moniker, when he would go into long funks popping up and not walking. Don’t get me wrong, philly is a racist town, but they will get behind an African American athlete, but the bar he has to reach is definitely higher than that of a white athlete.

Also think it's worth mentioning that the media (including the Phillies' broadcasters) fed any disparity between the two with stereotypical narratives.

chase utley was Delco and the North East wrapped up in a baseball player. the ultimate 'play the game the right way' kind of guy.

Despite being one of dose California fruitcakes!

A few other factors I haven't seen mentioned yet:

- Rollins' "frontrunner" comment in August 2008 rubbed a lot of folks the wrong way. (EDIT:) Hamels wasn't / isn't necessarily nearly as beloved as he should be, IMO, from his 2009 WS comments either.

- The x times Rollins was benched for not hustling - which as jamie points out above is particularly important in Philadelphia, as we all know.

- Howard's decline (injury-related, shift-related, all of it) coinciding with his extension rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. The extension was still the right move, especially the term of it, but all people saw was a guy making $25m with declining production. Also think the above point about "playing the game the right way" hurt Howard in the sense of his (perceived) refusal to adjust his plate approach.

Bill McNeal wrote:

mcare89 wrote:

Rev_Beezer wrote:Really good roundtable discussion on The Athletic conducted by Doug Glanville regarding race.

Just wondering - does anybody else think Jimmy Rollins would be held in more esteem if he were a white man?

Especially given the idol worship that many give To Chase. I love the man, but Jimmy is seen in rural PA as a cocky black guy. He was an amazing shortstop for many years. It’s a shame.

I don't think there's any question about that.

Absolutely. He’s an all time Phillies. He won a fucking NL MVP because he guaranteed we’d beat the Mets in ST and he fucking made it happen to give us our first playoff berth in 14 years and all anyone wants to talk about is how he didn’t hustle.

I never thought about it quite this way but agree 100% now that you bring it up. J-Roll is every bit the Phillie Chase was.

azrider wrote:

Uncle Milty wrote:In the end they're both too revered because of the team success but there's no doubt Jimmy's legend suffers because of his skin color.

And also because he had a 99ops+ during an era of the golden age for shortstops. Lest we also forget bsg’s own “bad jimmy” moniker, when he would go into long funks popping up and not walking. Don’t get me wrong, philly is a racist town, but they will get behind an African American athlete, but the bar he has to reach is definitely higher than that of a white athlete.

I think your point about the bar is right on here. The fact that him and Bowa was a legitimate conversation people had at times was crazy. He literally had to go out and win an MVP award to end it and I’m not sure if he completely did.

In terms of Chase, I think he might have been good enough/had a playing style that he would have cleared the bar regardless? Impossible to say of course.

One thing about JRoll that I think people overlook-with all his "swag" and "style," people think of him as "flashy." But defensively, he was as fundamentally sound as anybody, at perhaps the most important defensive position on the diamond.

Stripes wrote:One thing about JRoll that I think people overlook-with all his "swag" and "style," people think of him as "flashy." But defensively, he was as fundamentally sound as anybody, at perhaps the most important defensive position on the diamond.

At the plate maybe. I never thought of him that way in the field. He was just the most solidly reliable SS the Phillies ever had, certainly. I basically don't remember him ever making a throwing error, for example.

certainly looks like no season after the pa's statement.