Well I played in AC last night and ended up plus 80 bucks. Not too great, but still a plus. Anyway, I bought into the table shortstacked and decided to play tight early to see how the table was. Here's a hand that just stunk(though I think I played it alright for how loose the table was at 1/2):

everyone folded, 2nd to the button raises to 12, everyone folds to me in the BB. I look at AK off, and have 47. I figure I don't have enough to take down the pot on the flop if I just call here, and I can't raise just a little bit. I figure I'll take the pot down there and I go allin since it's likely he just has a weak ace and is raising or something like k10. Blinds fold, it gets back to the raiser who thinks for about 20 seconds then calls and turns over AJ. Board is 2 3 4 5 6, I won a dollar! fun hand watching the board come out 60/40 hand

I also lost a pretty big pot where I flopped aces up and someone else had a royal flush draw with 2 live cards and we were allin in the flop due to our fairly low stacks(100 some?) and he drew out.

Had fun, also played some roulette and hit for 300. That was fun.




seke - As for your topic, I think that people have become very knowledgable of raising on the button or limping in late position. Things are a lot different online than they were at partypoker

pacino wrote:everyone folded, 2nd to the button raises to 12, everyone folds to me in the BB. I look at AK off, and have 47. I figure I don't have enough to take down the pot on the flop if I just call here, and I can't raise just a little bit. I figure I'll take the pot down there and I go allin since it's likely he just has a weak ace and is raising or something like k10. Blinds fold, it gets back to the raiser who thinks for about 20 seconds then calls and turns over AJ. Board is 2 3 4 5 6, I won a dollar! fun hand watching the board come out 60/40 hand

I think a stop and go could have been effective here. Call the 12 and go all in after the flop no matter what hits.

seke2 wrote:Cbetting
Adjustment: Pretty obvious, but you should more often raise a flop bet from a preflop raiser, especially in situations that "dictate" a cbet (heads up pot, blind defense, etc.). Check planning to C/R, check/call the flop and lead the turn, etc. Find spots where you think it's unlikely the PFR connected with the flop and win a few extra bets.

People may also call/raise your cbets much more liberally than they did in the past, but I think this happens to a lesser extent. Accordingly, more often you might check a flop with a mediocre/good hand that you think is best, hoping to get to showdown cheaply because you can't stand a raise. I suppose you could cbet more often with very strong but well concealed
hands because you're more often going to get raised by people who think you are "just cbetting."

Found the perfect spot and tried it- it worked!!!


Full Tilt Poker Game #2755860953: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (21011773), Table 1 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:01:21 ET - 2007/06/24

Seat 1: REVERSE84 (2,215)
Seat 2: TorqueZilla (1,550)
Seat 4: BrianBigNFun (2,555)
Seat 5: gbnd45 (1,180)
Seat 6: Xelat (560)
Seat 7: henchen (2,010)
Seat 8: -BigCraig007- (2,265)
Seat 9: 54t3121 (1,165)

BrianBigNFun posts the small blind of 50
gbnd45 posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #2

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BrianBigNFun 7:c: 9:c:
Xelat folds
henchen folds
-BigCraig007- folds
54t3121 folds
REVERSE84 raises to 300
TorqueZilla folds
BrianBigNFun calls 250
gbnd45 folds

I was in the small blind and decided to try this move as reverse84 seemed like a "script" player in previous hands, even if I lose chips, it's an exercise to see what happens. So I call the raise expecting to go heads up and having to be 1st to act. Unless the flop is nutty with 2 face cards or more or all of one suit then Im ready to bluff.

*** FLOP ***

3:d: J:s: 8:s:

BrianBigNFun checks

I check here, specifically to check raise.

REVERSE84 bets 400

BINGO

BrianBigNFun raises to 900
REVERSE84 folds
Uncalled bet of 500 returned to BrianBigNFun
BrianBigNFun mucks
BrianBigNFun wins the pot (1,500)


I guess I have new weapon.

Does FullTilt have a monthly service charge? I've been getting $15 automatic withdrawals on my debit card acct. and I can't figure out what the heck it is. It's called "Calculated Service Charge type JD" or something weird like that. I seem to recall my initial deposit being titled something similar, but I'm not 100% sure. I can't look back on my online statements far enough to check.

No. Someplace else is screwing you over.



The 50K HORSE event just started! There are some crazy table assignments. Just big big players.

pacino wrote:No. Someplace else is screwing you over.



The 50K HORSE event just started! There are some crazy table assignments. Just big big players.

Ei Elezra is currently chip leader, my fave Gavin is up there as well.

The Red Tornado wrote:

seke2 wrote:Cbetting
Adjustment: Pretty obvious, but you should more often raise a flop bet from a preflop raiser, especially in situations that "dictate" a cbet (heads up pot, blind defense, etc.). Check planning to C/R, check/call the flop and lead the turn, etc. Find spots where you think it's unlikely the PFR connected with the flop and win a few extra bets.

People may also call/raise your cbets much more liberally than they did in the past, but I think this happens to a lesser extent. Accordingly, more often you might check a flop with a mediocre/good hand that you think is best, hoping to get to showdown cheaply because you can't stand a raise. I suppose you could cbet more often with very strong but well concealed
hands because you're more often going to get raised by people who think you are "just cbetting."

Found the HAMELS spot and tried it- it worked!!!


Full Tilt Poker Game #2755860953: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (21011773), Table 1 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:01:21 ET - 2007/06/24

Seat 1: REVERSE84 (2,215)
Seat 2: TorqueZilla (1,550)
Seat 4: BrianBigNFun (2,555)
Seat 5: gbnd45 (1,180)
Seat 6: Xelat (560)
Seat 7: henchen (2,010)
Seat 8: -BigCraig007- (2,265)
Seat 9: 54t3121 (1,165)

BrianBigNFun posts the small blind of 50
gbnd45 posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #2

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BrianBigNFun 7:c: 9:c:
Xelat folds
henchen folds
-BigCraig007- folds
54t3121 folds
REVERSE84 raises to 300
TorqueZilla folds
BrianBigNFun calls 250
gbnd45 folds

I was in the small blind and decided to try this move as reverse84 seemed like a "script" player in previous hands, even if I lose chips, it's an exercise to see what happens. So I call the raise expecting to go heads up and having to be 1st to act. Unless the flop is nutty with 2 face cards or more or all of one suit then Im ready to bluff.

*** FLOP ***

3:d: J:s: 8:s:

BrianBigNFun checks

I check here, specifically to check raise.

REVERSE84 bets 400

BINGO

BrianBigNFun raises to 900
REVERSE84 folds
Uncalled bet of 500 returned to BrianBigNFun
BrianBigNFun mucks
BrianBigNFun wins the pot (1,500)


I guess I have new weapon.

Yeah, I like this in theory. It's also nice here because you have a semi-bluff where getting called might end up being a good if you spike a straight. My only concern here with this spot would be stack sizes. I believe your flop raise should have been all-in unless you felt the smaller raise would generate more FE and were still going to call an all-in if he moved over you.

Preflop, your opponent has 22xBB. If he plays "normally" he's going to put 3xBB in preflop and then 4-5xBB in as a cbet. This will leave him short. What this means is that when you raise the flop, you are basically committed to playing for the rest of your opponent's stack. Your small raise to 900 is basically telling him that, and the only question is whether he's crazy enough to believe you might actually fold if he moves all-in.

If you were raising and planning to fold to a push, you should have just folded to his cbet OR you should have moved all-in over his cbet.

Definitely the right kind of spot for it, and your hand is nice for this spot as well.

I'd be curious to hear the rationale behind why you made the small raised as opposed to an all-in raise.

The smaller raise was designed to give him the impression I wanted a call. Since I had him on a standard cbet and no made hand, I figured that if I looked like I wanted a call, he would think I actually had a made hand. More a metagame decision than a math decision at that point.

Hey, if I did it for the wrong reasons, then I guess I got away with something.

I should send you that game, because I think I did most everything right that time and I ended up winning the tourney.

The Red Tornado wrote:The smaller raise was designed to give him the impression I wanted a call. Since I had him on a standard cbet and no made hand, I figured that if I looked like I wanted a call, he would think I actually had a made hand. More a metagame decision than a math decision at that point.

Hey, if I did it for the wrong reasons, then I guess I got away with something.

I should send you that game, because I think I did most everything right that time and I ended up winning the tourney.

Ok, so, the fundamental question still is this.

If your opponent had moved all-in over your raise to 900, would you have called or folded? If the answer is fold, then I don't like your play as much. If the answer is call, I think I prefer a push but I understand your thought process. If you hadn't made that decision PRIOR to making your flop raise, I hate your line.

But the good part is that you're now at the point where we've moved beyond discussing your play and we're now talking about your thought process, which IMHO is a huge step.

One thing that came up recently in a 20 buck sng was a moment that I wasnt positive if I should call or not with a bad hand just because the odds mightve been there.


My stack had 2800 and the blinds were 50/100, strangely tho only one player at this point had been eliminated. The UTG shortie went all in for 560 and I was in the BB and it gets folded around to me. Obviously, I have a hundred in there already, but my hand was a dismal 6 2o. I guess the range of hands he couldve had were wide since he was getting hit by the blind next, so I almost called but erred on the side of caution (and knocked out him the next hand, by pushing in the SB)

So how can I calculate this sort of thing in a hurry?

seke2 wrote:

The Red Tornado wrote:The smaller raise was designed to give him the impression I wanted a call. Since I had him on a standard cbet and no made hand, I figured that if I looked like I wanted a call, he would think I actually had a made hand. More a metagame decision than a math decision at that point.

Hey, if I did it for the wrong reasons, then I guess I got away with something.

I should send you that game, because I think I did most everything right that time and I ended up winning the tourney.

Ok, so, the fundamental question still is this.

If your opponent had moved all-in over your raise to 900, would you have called or folded? If the answer is fold, then I don't like your play as much. If the answer is call, I think I prefer a push but I understand your thought process. If you hadn't made that decision PRIOR to making your flop raise, I hate your line.

But the good part is that you're now at the point where we've moved beyond discussing your play and we're now talking about your thought process, which IMHO is a huge step.

I have to be honest and say I probably wouldve folded, but the mini raise wasnt done out of fear, so do I get half points?

You use your brain to calc it in a hurry.

You use pokerstove when you're away from the table to analyze the hand, see what you SHOULD have done, and then store that information in your brain to be used later as a basis to help with calculations.

Basically, you see how big the pot is, how much you have to call.

If you're putting in less than 1/3 of the money (so getting 2:1 or better), most likely you should be calling with basically any 2. You can occasionally fold even getting odds this good if a player is tight and you can't really afford to lose the hand.

If you're not getting 2:1, then you can start folding hands.

Once you get to like 1.5:1 (so you are putting in 40% of the total money), you should probably only be calling with hands that have a fair amount of value (decent aces, pairs, some two-broadway hands).

Given your description of the hand below, I fold too.

The Red Tornado wrote:I have to be honest and say I probably wouldve folded, but the mini raise wasnt done out of fear, so do I get half points?

No, not really. You can't be putting in half your stack with the intent of folding.

The fact that you had not already decided with certainty what you were going to do if he raised your bet (barring some sort of read you saw in the meantime changing your decision--pretty unlikely online) prior to making the raise is the much larger problem.

Sometimes, you need to start to thinking about a hand in total as opposed to each decision in isolation. This is definitely one of those spots.

If I was playing, I would have made a lot of those decisions preflop, to be honest. Preflop, I would have been looking at the stack sizes to determine if I'd be able to do the sort of thing you did. I might even have moved all-in preflop on a resteal as opposed to trying to take it away postflop because I'd have been worried about my opponent feeling pot committed with ANY sort of a hand, thus hampering my ability to be creative postflop like you were.

This is definitely a spot where you need to think through a hand before you start investing chips in it. It's basically like chess where you need to think a few moves ahead before making your move because each move has implications on later moves. In this case, each decision you make on this hand to fold, call, or raise has major implications on later decisions in the hand AND later decisions in the tournament because of the large percentage of your stack that will likely end up invested in this pot if you decide to call the preflop raise with the intent of making a post-flop play.

seke2 wrote:You use your brain to calc it in a hurry.

You use pokerstove when you're away from the table to analyze the hand, see what you SHOULD have done, and then store that information in your brain to be used later as a basis to help with calculations.

Basically, you see how big the pot is, how much you have to call.

If you're putting in less than 1/3 of the money (so getting 2:1 or better), most likely you should be calling with basically any 2. You can occasionally fold even getting odds this good if a player is tight and you can't really afford to lose the hand.

If you're not getting 2:1, then you can start folding hands.

Once you get to like 1.5:1 (so you are putting in 40% of the total money), you should probably only be calling with hands that have a fair amount of value (decent aces, pairs, some two-broadway hands).

Given your description of the hand below, I fold too.

It's funny, my "instinct" is finally agreeing with the math more often.

Since you seem to be a specialist at sng or MTT for online, how do you think you'd do in a deep stack tourney like the WSOP?

seke2 wrote:

The Red Tornado wrote:I have to be honest and say I probably wouldve folded, but the mini raise wasnt done out of fear, so do I get half points?

No, not really. You can't be putting in half your stack with the intent of folding.

The fact that you had not already decided with certainty what you were going to do if he raised your bet (barring some sort of read you saw in the meantime changing your decision--pretty unlikely online) prior to making the raise is the much larger problem.

Sometimes, you need to start to thinking about a hand in total as opposed to each decision in isolation. This is definitely one of those spots.

If I was playing, I would have made a lot of those decisions preflop, to be honest. Preflop, I would have been looking at the stack sizes to determine if I'd be able to do the sort of thing you did. I might even have moved all-in preflop on a resteal as opposed to trying to take it away postflop because I'd have been worried about my opponent feeling pot committed with ANY sort of a hand, thus hampering my ability to be creative postflop like you were.

This is definitely a spot where you need to think through a hand before you start investing chips in it. It's basically like chess where you need to think a few moves ahead before making your move because each move has implications on later moves. In this case, each decision you make on this hand to fold, call, or raise has major implications on later decisions in the hand AND later decisions in the tournament because of the large percentage of your stack that will likely end up invested in this pot if you decide to call the preflop raise with the intent of making a post-flop play.

But what about readjusting during a hand? You get information as the betting is done and I think that if he comes in over the top the chances of him having a made hand are very real.

Went down to AC on Friday night with a buddy and played in the pink chip(7.50/15 limit played with pink $2.50 chips) game at the Trop....god I love that game. There were some truly terrible players in the game as usual, with people regularly cold-calling 3 and 4 bets preflop with such monsters as K-5 off and j-3 suited. Was stuck about $500 halfway into the night due to being mostly card dead combined with 2nd best hand syndrome. Things turned when my Aces held up in a monstrous pot that was 5-handed to the river and 3-handed to showdown to get me back in business. Then drunk bachelor party guy sat down and proceeded to run over the table for an hour before really padded my stack. He had turned $100 into about $800 by being an absolute cardrack before making some really bizarre plays.

I had 6:c:-2:c: on the button with 5 limpers ahead of me so I decided to see a flop which came K:h:6:s:6:d:. Jackpot...drunk guy bets out from the SB and got a bunch of callers, I decided just to call with the intention to raise the turn considering there were no draws on the board. Turn 10 , he bets out and I raise after getting 3 callers stuck in the middle. We lose one caller and its 4 handed to the river of 9:d:. He bets out AGAIN and theres a caller before it gets back to me. I consider just calling given the straight possibilities but given his general idiocy I decide to raise(would not make that raise against any other player, he was that bad). He 3-bets me and I curse my luck that I got run down by a runner-runner straight. Passive lady in the middle calls and I call as well only to have him go "I like to bluff sometimes" and table A:d:7:c: for absolutely nothing. Passive lady had a king with a crappy kicker....I don't know whose play is worse in that hand.

Anyway just wanted to share, if any of you play limit that game is a goldmine if you can handle some of the swings.

The Red Tornado wrote:But what about readjusting during a hand? You get information as the betting is done and I think that if he comes in over the top the chances of him having a made hand are very real.

There is usually room to readjust. The problem is here with 20xBB effective stacks, there is not much room. As you saw the way you played the hand, he did what you expected (cbet a reasonable amount) and your raise of his bet (should have) pot committed you to the hand. That's not exactly a lot of room to adjust, if you follow me.

If you had like 50xBB effective stacks, then obviously you can be much more speculative and make calls without a clear plan because you have room to be creative and try different things.

I'm also not saying you have to make every decision 100% set in stone. Let's say I'm in your shoes, here's my general though process as I call the flop bet. Note that most of my decisions are conditional ("if the flop isn't too scary" or "if he bets a reasonable amount"). You could almost draw a decision tree but even I have never gotten to that point of nerdiness.


Ok, he raised in LP, he could have anything here. I'm going to call and try to take this away postflop.

I'm going to check most flops here and if he cbets a reasonable amount as I expect he will, I'm going to push over his bet and try to steal this pot as long as the flop doesn't look too scary. If he cbets pot-size or larger, I may have to abandon this play and only continue if I like my hand. If he checks behind and I don't feel like he's slowplaying depending on the board, I will probably take a stab at the turn on almost any turn card.

Alt wrote:Went down to AC on Friday night with a buddy and played in the pink chip(7.50/15 limit played with pink $2.50 chips) game at the Trop....god I love that game. There were some truly terrible players in the game as usual, with people regularly cold-calling 3 and 4 bets preflop with such monsters as K-5 off and j-3 suited. Was stuck about $500 halfway into the night due to being mostly card dead combined with 2nd best hand syndrome. Things turned when my Aces held up in a monstrous pot that was 5-handed to the river and 3-handed to showdown to get me back in business. Then drunk bachelor party guy sat down and proceeded to run over the table for an hour before really padded my stack. He had turned $100 into about $800 by being an absolute cardrack before making some really bizarre plays.

I had 6:c:-2:c: on the button with 5 limpers ahead of me so I decided to see a flop which came K:h:6:s:6:d:. Jackpot...drunk guy bets out from the SB and got a bunch of callers, I decided just to call with the intention to raise the turn considering there were no draws on the board. Turn 10 , he bets out and I raise after getting 3 callers stuck in the middle. We lose one caller and its 4 handed to the river of 9:d:. He bets out AGAIN and theres a caller before it gets back to me. I consider just calling given the straight possibilities but given his general idiocy I decide to raise(would not make that raise against any other player, he was that bad). He 3-bets me and I curse my luck that I got run down by a runner-runner straight. Passive lady in the middle calls and I call as well only to have him go "I like to bluff sometimes" and table A:d:7:c: for absolutely nothing. Passive lady had a king with a crappy kicker....I don't know whose play is worse in that hand.

Anyway just wanted to share, if any of you play limit that game is a goldmine if you can handle some of the swings.

Jesus christ. I want some of that action. 7.50/15 is technically miles out of my poker bankroll though, though usually I do play above my online stakes when I'm playing live.

seke2 wrote:

Alt wrote:Went down to AC on Friday night with a buddy and played in the pink chip(7.50/15 limit played with pink $2.50 chips) game at the Trop....god I love that game. There were some truly terrible players in the game as usual, with people regularly cold-calling 3 and 4 bets preflop with such monsters as K-5 off and j-3 suited. Was stuck about $500 halfway into the night due to being mostly card dead combined with 2nd best hand syndrome. Things turned when my Aces held up in a monstrous pot that was 5-handed to the river and 3-handed to showdown to get me back in business. Then drunk bachelor party guy sat down and proceeded to run over the table for an hour before really padded my stack. He had turned $100 into about $800 by being an absolute cardrack before making some really bizarre plays.

I had 6:c:-2:c: on the button with 5 limpers ahead of me so I decided to see a flop which came K:h:6:s:6:d:. Jackpot...drunk guy bets out from the SB and got a bunch of callers, I decided just to call with the intention to raise the turn considering there were no draws on the board. Turn 10 , he bets out and I raise after getting 3 callers stuck in the middle. We lose one caller and its 4 handed to the river of 9:d:. He bets out AGAIN and theres a caller before it gets back to me. I consider just calling given the straight possibilities but given his general idiocy I decide to raise(would not make that raise against any other player, he was that bad). He 3-bets me and I curse my luck that I got run down by a runner-runner straight. Passive lady in the middle calls and I call as well only to have him go "I like to bluff sometimes" and table A:d:7:c: for absolutely nothing. Passive lady had a king with a crappy kicker....I don't know whose play is worse in that hand.

Anyway just wanted to share, if any of you play limit that game is a goldmine if you can handle some of the swings.

Jesus christ. I want some of that action. 7.50/15 is technically miles out of my poker bankroll though, though usually I do play above my online stakes when I'm playing live.

Live a little. I'll bankroll you.