I thought the debate would be possibly Bonds over the Babe, but since Bonds is @ 3, and Ruth is @ 2, then the Say Hey Kid @1 has to have some juice.

From 1954-1957, four full seasons, Richie Ashburn OPSed 118, with a .415 OBP, an admittedly paltry .391 SLG, for an OPS of .806, while walking 101 times in average season (in an age where walks weren't much of a thing; actually he led the NL in walks in 1954-1955, and 1957-1958) while striking out only 43 times a season on average, on an average of 699 PA. He also averaged 183 hits a season during that time frame.

And he was never once an All-Star in that period.

I know, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and whoever in right. But hot damn he was a good player.

Finally in 1958 he made an All-Star team for only the second time in his career (the first was in 1953, when his OPS was 110). All he had to do was hit .350 that season, with a .440 OBP in 725 (!!!) PAs, get his slugging up to .441 (thanks to 13 triples and the 2 HRs he hit, against 0 the year before), for an OPS of 136. He also swiped 30 bags while getting caught 12 times.

Oh, and four of those six league seasons for Ashburn turn out to be in the top-12 for the entire period of 1953-1958 in terms of his defensive WAR (t-4 for 1957, 8 for 1954, t-10 for 1953, and 12 for 1956).

For the old-enough timers on the board, I have always sort of wondered something since I started to think about park effects: Connie Mack Stadiums was both HUGE like Safeco, and also had an enormous spite fence erected not for fairness but for, well, spite, in right field.

I would think this would have made the place an almost impossible place to hit many home runs, particularly for left-handed hitters, but while it seems to have favored pitchers, it doesn't seem like it did aggressively so. It's true that the Phillies didn't have a lot of left-handed hitters launching homers, but then looking at the list of people they had as left handed hitters from say 1946-1970, outside of Johnny Callison, it's not exactly like they had a bunch of guys who were going to launch 'em no matter where they played.

I know the fences were moved in out in center before the place closed at some point in the 60s, but did the place seem like just a pitcher's paradise back in the day? It seems like it should have. Left center 420 feet, right center 405 - with a an unnecessary 34 foot high fence! - and famously 447 feet to dead center. Yowza.

Anecdotally, my father always told me that some guy for the Phillies held the Guinness Book of World Records for longest recorded throw of a baseball, which was done not in a game but for the book, but nevertheless a 447 heave from centerfield to home plate on the fly. This seems conspicuously impossible to me and I wish there were a video of it, but can anyone confirm?

EDIT: Well I looked it up. It was 445 feet, his name was Glenn Gorbous, he did it at a AAA ballpark, from left field to right field corner, at Omaha Municipal Stadium. He did however play for the Phillies in his very brief ML career, which is why I thought, given the distance, it must have been done at Shibe.

Wolfgang622 wrote:From 1954-1957, four full seasons, Richie Ashburn OPSed 118, with a .415 OBP, an admittedly paltry .391 SLG, for an OPS of .806, while walking 101 times in average season (in an age where walks weren't much of a thing; actually he led the NL in walks in 1954-1955, and 1957-1958) while striking out only 43 times a season on average, on an average of 699 PA. He also averaged 183 hits a season during that time frame.

And he was never once an All-Star in that period.

I know, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and whoever in right. But hot damn he was a good player.

Finally in 1958 he made an All-Star team for only the second time in his career (the first was in 1953, when his OPS was 110). All he had to do was hit .350 that season, with a .440 OBP in 725 (!!!) PAs, get his slugging up to .441 (thanks to 13 triples and the 2 HRs he hit, against 0 the year before), for an OPS of 136. He also swiped 30 bags while getting caught 12 times.

Oh, and four of those six league seasons for Ashburn turn out to be in the top-12 for the entire period of 1953-1958 in terms of his defensive WAR (t-4 for 1957, 8 for 1954, t-10 for 1953, and 12 for 1956).

Other issue was the Phillies weren't good enough to get more than 1-2 all stars then and Robin Roberts existed. MLB's rule that every team needs a rep had also led to some weird results of good players only making a few ASGs over their careers. Sort of crazy how often you see a guy not make an all star team and then be top 10 in MVP voting.

Richie had the misfortune to be a CF at the same time that Willie Mays and Duke Snider were at the prime of their careers. Their slugging made them one and two at the position. Also, though Richie had legs and hands in the OF, his arm was considered to be pedestrian.
IDK if CMS/Shibe park hurt the hitters. The distance down the lines wasn’t bad. Balls hit into center could be caught but if they went over the CFer, it was a least a 3B and maybe an inside the parker. Other oldsters may disagree with this but the ball seemed to carry well there. The tall LF stands cut off the winds in that direction. The tin wall/scoreboard in RF also held the wind out of the equation of balls hit in that direction. Balls that hit the scoreboard usually fell down dead on the warning track which made for at least a sure double. Like all of the old ball yards, CSM had its quirks. At least it wasn’t old Crowley field in Cincinnati with its hill in the OF going toward the walls. Forbes field was the Grand Canyon.

the spite fence was on top of the bleachers, wasn't it? so it didn't make any difference in gameplay?

Bucky wrote:the spite fence was on top of the bleachers, wasn't it? so it didn't make any difference in gameplay?

nope, i am incorrect. i just opened up that chapter in my copy of 'to every thing a season' and yes, it was the actual right field wall. my failing memory must've conflated that with when they built the left field bleachers in the 1910s, cutting off those residences from seeing the field.

Bucky wrote:

Bucky wrote:the spite fence was on top of the bleachers, wasn't it? so it didn't make any difference in gameplay?

nope, i am incorrect. i just opened up that chapter in my copy of 'to every thing a season' and yes, it was the actual right field wall. my failing memory must've conflated that with when they built the left field bleachers in the 1910s, cutting off those residences from seeing the field.

Yeah, I have that book. Does it say why a spite fence was built, instead of just a set of bleachers like on the left field side? Would have made more sense.

no, but it's pretty easy to infer...the team was crappy, attendance was dwindling and cheap a$$ connie mack was pissed that revenue was going to the 20th streeters and not him. no way was he going to spend all that money for proper bleachers without attendance demand. the corrugated metal fence was a quick, dirty, and cheap 'fix'.

Tbf, the fence was John Shibe's idea. Mack did not own a controlling interest in the club until 1937.

ah yes, you are correct. I guess i honed in on a quote in the book (the book quoting somebody): "Connie Mack built that spite fence so you couldn't see the game from across the street. He was that cheap".

But before that it does say "At the end of 1934, Jack Shibe acted. The Depression and poor teams had cut down attendance. The A's believed that the franchise could not lose further revenue to North Twentieth. Shibe added thirty-eight feet to the original twelve-foot wall and by March 1935 completed framing a new fence from the right field line to the flagpole. The franchise used corrugated metal and green paint to finish the job for opening day".

Bucky wrote:no, but it's pretty easy to infer...the team was crappy, attendance was dwindling and cheap a$$ connie mack was pissed that revenue was going to the 20th streeters and not him. no way was he going to spend all that money for proper bleachers without attendance demand. the corrugated metal fence was a quick, dirty, and cheap 'fix'.

I don't really think the geography would have easily allowed for right field bleachers anyway. 20th to 21st is a shorter block than Lehigh to Columbia The metal wall was right up against 20th street, and the distance to the right field corner was only 329 feet. though I suppose you're right, if there had been enough money it they would have figured out a way, but with attendance on the decline it wouldn't have made sense as an investment at the time.

I think the "spite fence" sometimes gets a bad rap. These weren't knothole gang kids being deprived of the chance to see the game for free. People were literally selling tickets on the sidewalk outside the stadium at prices less than the at the box office for bleacher seats installed on the roof.

As to original question, obviously "park factors" were not as seriously discussed back in the day. I don't remember the opening of the Vet being discussed as a positive or negative for the offense (until they discovered that anything hitting the ground near the warning tack was likely to bounce over the fence). Connie Mack obviously had that wasteland in center field, but the corners and power alleys weren't that different from the new Vet. The high fence in right was obviously a detriment to left handed hitters. Dick sisler, say, seems to be one who was affected by it, though I can't find any discussion of that. His biography is certainly an interesting read anyway

Bucky wrote:ah yes, you are correct. I guess i honed in on a quote in the book (the book quoting somebody): "Connie Mack built that spite fence so you couldn't see the game from across the street. He was that cheap".

But before that it does say "At the end of 1934, Jack Shibe acted. The Depression and poor teams had cut down attendance. The A's believed that the franchise could not lose further revenue to North Twentieth. Shibe added thirty-eight feet to the original twelve-foot wall and by March 1935 completed framing a new fence from the right field line to the flagpole. The franchise used corrugated metal and green paint to finish the job for opening day".

Gotcha. I'm sure to everyone back then Mack was the A's. I'm sure he probably had input in the decision too.

Also, that is a wonderful book. I had to read it in college and it was the only "text book" I ever kept.

Gee Ron Cey had a really nice, really consistent career. If he hadn't been an exact contemporary of our own Mike Schmidt, he'd probably be remembered as the best third baseman of his era, maybe even garner some Hall consideration.

It's kind of amazing that, as a good player with a long career, he never lead the league in a single category. Hell, even Ray Knight got in on that party leading the league in GDP 2 consecutive years.

Wolfgang622 wrote:Gee Ron Cey had a really nice, really consistent career. If he hadn't been an exact contemporary of our own Mike Schmidt, he'd probably be remembered as the best third baseman of his era, maybe even garner some Hall consideration.

George Brett and Wade Boggs object.

phillychuck wrote:

Wolfgang622 wrote:Gee Ron Cey had a really nice, really consistent career. If he hadn't been an exact contemporary of our own Mike Schmidt, he'd probably be remembered as the best third baseman of his era, maybe even garner some Hall consideration.

George Brett and Wade Boggs object.

Oh yeah well fuck them

from this facebook page

Inflation adjusted to 2020:
.25 would be 1.92
.55 would be 4.22
.75 would be 5.76

Bill McNeal wrote:Inflation adjusted to 2020:
.25 would be 1.92
.55 would be 4.22
.75 would be 5.76

Still can't get a knish at CBP at any price.

And certainly what I miss most about baseball is enjoying an egg salad sandwich in the warm, summer sun.