WilliamC wrote:I woke up on the wrong side of bed this morning I guess because there is no excusing any of this anymore. It's not even a major league team and the coaching staff should be coaching high school baseball or something.

Trust the process. Why are the Phillies idiots for rebuilding without overly focusing on short term results but the Sixers are geniuses? Answer: because people have forgotten the pain in between now that the Sixers have made it. Who gives a shit whether the Phillies win 70 games or 56 this year?

Just like the Sixers, they need to keep at it until they find stars. Sixto, Halseley, next year's #1, maybe Kingery or Alfaro or someone else. Why are the Phillies idiots because Maikel hasn't turned into a star, but Hinke was a genius even though he drafted Okafor? Answer: there's no difference.

We appear to still nd batts and also now armz

But they have legs. And feet. And balls.

Werthless wrote:But they have legs. And feet. And balls.

kruk was obsessed with how many the phillies go through in a season, so he said he asked frank coppenbarger...and the answer was..."something like 44 thousand dozen"

nycphils wrote:

WilliamC wrote:I woke up on the wrong side of bed this morning I guess because there is no excusing any of this anymore. It's not even a major league team and the coaching staff should be coaching high school baseball or something.

Trust the process. Why are the Phillies idiots for rebuilding without overly focusing on short term results but the Sixers are geniuses? Answer: because people have forgotten the pain in between now that the Sixers have made it. Who gives a #$!&@ whether the Phillies win 70 games or 56 this year?

Just like the Sixers, they need to keep at it until they find stars. Sixto, Halseley, next year's #1, maybe Kingery or Alfaro or someone else. Why are the Phillies idiots because Maikel hasn't turned into a star, but Hinke was a genius even though he drafted Okafor? Answer: there's no difference.

I mostly agree with this - the main difference - is that in NBA - 1 guy means so much. AND - often - not always, but a top 1-2-3 pick in NBA is often really good, a star or even a generational player -- but in MLB - the time between drafting and reaching majors - and the wild-card of pitchers who can have "arm issues". So it's not exactly the same. But otherwise I pretty much agree.

It is disappointing the Franco and Joseph didn't become better players and show great improvement once they went through the league - but 71 or 56 wins makes no difference. And it can take 3-7 years for a process to show anything.

In the NFL - it can go faster, but even then - if you are hanging on with a Mark Sanchez or Colin Kapernick - you probably still can go 7 years and not punch through to SB berth - and will have to start over and get a QBOTF.

Very few teams can sustain greatness forever - and when your star players get old or decline - there can be some lean years. I was happy with the Phils approach toward the later chapter of their big 5 years... they got good and really good offensively even back to Abreu and Thome - but when Howard and Utley and Hamels were peaking the big moves to get Doc and Cliff and Oswalt - I was "all in". They did their best. It was bad luck that in 09-10-11 they won more regular season games each year while falling short in the playoffs one layer more each time... There was a chance for 2-3 WS and a mini-dynasty and it just didn't happen.

They weren't prepared for the next chapter - and it took a while for new blood and new farm - and now we're in the mdist of it all... probably don't have the right manager, unsure if Klentak and McPhail are the right brass? And you need some luck.

My biggest hope for the current Phils - is that 1-2 guys perhaps a position guy and a SP, get healthy and become consistent and slight above average or replacement so we can begin to put anchor pieces in place to build upon. Whether Nola or VV or Altherr or Williams whomever - can at least 1 position and 1 pitcher become "legit" and - get consistent.

the main difference are the GMO fruits the Phillies are eating while the Sixers go full Berkeley

i was going to respond a lot shorter that the problem was that franco was supposed to do something this year and didn't

Saw again this morning that the Marlins are planning a major fire sale to get the debt of the franchise down prior to the sale... the article I saw mentioned anybody with salary is available including Stanton, Yelich, Gordon, Prado, Chen, Volquez, Ziegler... we are probably one team which can take on the 350-375 million in salary owed to Stanton and Yelich and probably have the kind of players Miami wants back since it won't get Sixto/Kingery type prospects when taking that kind of salary... low cost major leaguers like Cesar, Galvis, Rupp, Joseph, Williams seem like a basis for a deal... I don't even have a clue what a fair deal might look like though... Altherr, Yelich, Stanton would be a nice OF though

the marlins are a big joke

Why would we want Staton's contract? That isn't the type of deal a rebuilding team should take. That is a win now trade, we aren't ready for that.

Wheels Tupay wrote:Why would we want Staton's contract? That isn't the type of deal a rebuilding team should take. That is a win now trade, we aren't ready for that.

May create some excitement, sell some tickets, that sort of thing.....and the phillies have plenty of money to burn

Stanton is not even 28 yet. He has an opt out after 2020 and would like to hope this rebuild doesn't go into 2020's. You make a move.

Just to play Devil's Advocate:

If there's a reason it would be to jump start and reconfigure the rebuilding. It reminds me a bit of 1989. The team was going nowhere so they decided to make some moves. They acquired John Kruk, Lenny Dykstra and Terry Mullholland. At the time none of those guys seemed like they would move the needle much, if at all, and to get them they traded away a couple of key guys in Juan Samuel and Steve Bedrosian (who had won the Cy Young Award a season and a half before). But Kruk, Dykstra and Mulholland of course became key parts of the '93 NL champions.

Of course now it all revolves around what you think of Stanton's injury history and contract. Is he going to be healthy and productive enough to be worth $25MM 10 years from now at age 37? How about $32MM 6 years from now at age 33? He can also opt out after the 2020 season, but it's hard to see how that would benefit him.

But, if the Phils are interested in rolling the dice on Stanton, what would you give up? The Marlins don't need Joseph or Hernandez (unless Bour and/or Gordon is/are traded elsewhere). Here's what I might propose:

Receive:
Stanton
Yelich
Realmuto (someone mentioned this a little while ago)
Prado
+$XMM/year against Stanton's salary

Give:
Herrera
Franco
Williams
Alfaro (or Rupp, if they prefer)

If the Marlins won't pick up any of Stanton's salary, they get less. I think the Marlins would listen on Realmuto because he's arb eligible next year. Prado probably doesn't have a lot left in the tank, but he's a stopgap until a long-term solution is found.

The Marlins could definitely rationalize that return. It's a good return for a salary dump. Although Herrera, Franco and Alfaro are struggling this year, they could still turn it around.

Just spitballing. Lots of risk and reward involved. Just something to argue about for fun.

JFLNYC, that deal would look to be fair and acceptable to me if Stanton would waive his opt out. Otherwise it's giving up too much considering the size of the contracts that the Phillies would be taking on.

If you make it a package with Stanton and Yelich and not have to give up any top prospects I don't see the downside... both guys are better than anyone on the roster now by far... Stanton gives you a 40 HR corner OF playing home games at CBP and Yelich hasn't hit his potential yet... if it costs you some mix of Hernandez, Joseph, Rupp, Galvis, and a Williams or Quinn type... or even a Cozens, there are only so many OF spots... none of these prospects are sure things so you are making the team better now and down the road... go into 2018 with

C- Knapp/Alfaro/Vet
1B- Hoskins
2B- Kingery
SS- Crawford
3B- Franco
LF- Altherr
CF- Yelich
RF- Stanton

Much better than what we are looking at now and you have Herrera yet or whomever else you don't trade...

Concentrate on pitching in the offseason

well, that lineup is correct other than jfl traded Franco in that deal

pacino wrote:well, that lineup is correct other than jfl traded Franco in that deal

I'd rather keep Franco and trade Hernandez who would be a good replacement for them since they are looking to trade Gordon too

I don't think they would want to take on Herrera and his contract and I don't think they would take it without both moniak and kilome included.

Nothing's set in stone. If the Marlins won't chip in on Stanton's contract you pull back Franco. If Bour and/or Gordon is traded, Hernandez and/or Joseph could be part of the deal in addition to or instead of someone else.

I doubt there's another team out there that has the payroll and roster flexibility to make a trade like this.

Btw, I'd want Realmuto -- maybe even more than Yelich.

azrider wrote:I don't think they would want to take on Herrera and his contract and I don't think they would take it without both moniak and kilome included.

If they want to dump that amount of payroll they're not getting any primo prospects any more than we did when we traded Abreu.