POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby pacino » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:02:32

death penalty in ohio:
Ohio inmate Dennis McGuire appeared to gasp and convulse for roughly 10 minutes before he died Thursday by lethal injection using a new combination of drugs, reporters who witnessed it said.

McGuire was convicted in 1994 of the rape and murder of 22-year-old Joy Stewart, who was seven months pregnant. Her relatives were at Southern Ohio Correctional Facility in Lucasville to witness his death, according to tweets from television reporter Sheila Gray.

Columbus Dispatch reporter Alan Johnson said that the whole execution process took 24 minutes, and that McGuire appeared to be gasping for air for 10 to 13 minutes.

"He gasped deeply. It was kind of a rattling, guttural sound. There was kind of a snorting through his nose. A couple of times, he definitely appeared to be choking," WDTN quoted Johnson as saying.

The convicted murderer was pronounced dead at 10:53 a.m. ET.

The execution generated controversy because, like many states, Ohio has been forced to find new drug protocols after European-based manufacturers banned U.S. prisons from using their drugs in executions -- among them, Danish-based Lundbeck, which manufactures pentobarbital.

According to Ohio's corrections department, the state used a combination of the drugs midazolam, a sedative; and the painkiller hydromorphone.

Both the length of time it took for McGuire to die and his gasping are not typical for an execution, said Howard Nearman, an anesthesiologist at University Hospitals Case Medical Center in Cleveland.

"Why it took 24 minutes, I really can't tell you," he said. "It just makes you wonder -- what was given? What was the timing, and what were the doses?"

In an opinion piece written for CNN this week, a law professor noted that McGuire's attorneys argued he would "suffocate to death in agony and terror."

"The state disagrees. But the truth is that no one knows exactly how McGuire will die, how long it will take or what he will experience in the process," wrote Elisabeth A. Semel, clinic professor of law and director of the Death Penalty Clinic at U.C. Berkeley School of Law.

the new mixture of drugs that killed a man in Ohio took 15 minutes to end his life. the death penalty seems pretty cruel and unusual at this point.

he's not a great guy, he raped and killed a woman in 1989, but i'm not sure hte state should be inflicting that sort of peverse justice. keep him in jail. i don't want to be a part of killing someone, especially not in this way.
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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby traderdave » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:15:50

Part of me agrees 100% with Pacino, as the description of McGuire's executive seems to be nothing more than legalized torture. However, another part of me reads "McGuire's attorneys argued he would "suffocate to death in agony and terror" and I cannot help but think "tough shit, Joy Stewart and her baby died in agony and terror, too". Capital punishment is a tough issue for me.

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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby JFLNYC » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:58:47

They could kill two birds with one stone if they used firing squads made up of Colorado high schoolers.
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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby Werthless » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:44:04

NYTimes piece on Obama's "evolving" views on spying:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/16/us/ob ... .html?_r=0

So while instituting additional procedural changes, Mr. Obama undertook no major overhaul of the surveillance programs he inherited. “He’s sitting on the other end of the pen now,” said the former Obama aide. “He has more information than he did then. And he trusts himself to use these powers more than he did the Bush administration.”

Just weeks after the inauguration, Judge Reggie B. Walton issued a secret ruling reprimanding the N.S.A. for violating its own procedures. But when Mr. Obama was briefed, the case did not stir consternation. The president’s team instructed the Justice Department to fix the problem, but “this was not a central concern and he was very quick in knowing how to deal with it,” said a former administration official.

The calculus had shifted enough that Mr. Obama began presiding over a record number of leak prosecutions. When civil liberties advocates visited to press him to do more to reverse Mr. Bush’s policies, Mr. Obama pushed back. “He reminded me that he had a different role to play, that he was commander in chief and that he needed to protect the American people,” recalled Mr. Romero of the A.C.L.U.

...

Mr. Obama appointed a panel to review the programs. “The point we made to him was, ‘We’re not really concerned about you, Barack, but God forbid some other guy’s in the office five years from now and there’s another 9/11,’ ” said Richard A. Clarke, a former White House counterterrorism adviser who served on the panel. He had to “lay down some roadblocks in addition to what we have now so that once you’re gone it’ll be harder” to abuse spying abilities.


As someone who doesn't support Obama, but supported his exhortations as a Senator to limit surveillance, I found myself shaking my head at Clarke's comment. America needed someone who practiced what he preached on this issue, otherwise any last-minute changes on the way out won't have credibility. They will just be rolled back in times of emergency. Executive power tends to move in one direction, and not even an ass like Nixon changed that.

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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby Werthless » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:46:51

Capital Punishment is easy/easier to say 'no' to when the death is expensive (ie. appeals), torturous, and exacted with extended pain. What an awful event it must have been to witness that.

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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby Bucky » Fri Jan 17, 2014 13:15:09

Werthless wrote:Capital Punishment is easy/easier to say 'no' to when the death is expensive (ie. appeals), torturous, and exacted with extended pain. What an awful event it must have been to witness that.


but yet, may act as more of a deterrent than any of the other contemporary, more humane, methods. The whole death penalty thing is so conflicting.

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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby TenuredVulture » Fri Jan 17, 2014 13:54:36

I've never seen any evidence that it's an effective deterrent. To be fair (and I'm absolutely opposed to the death penalty) that could change if the death penalty were imposed more often.
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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby Swiggers » Fri Jan 17, 2014 14:00:44

The thing about deterrents is that they work on people who are rational. Most killers aren't rational.
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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby traderdave » Fri Jan 17, 2014 14:20:10

TenuredVulture wrote:I've never seen any evidence that it's an effective deterrent. To be fair (and I'm absolutely opposed to the death penalty) that could change if the death penalty were imposed more often.


Or more expeditiously; it takes 11 years, on average, to carry out a capital sentence (15 in Florida). I think I once heard that 30% of all death row inmates die of natural causes, their sentences never carried out. In many ways, that is 11 or 15 years of anguish for the victims' families as well.

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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby choco » Fri Jan 17, 2014 14:23:21

JFLNYC wrote:They could kill two birds with one stone if they used firing squads made up of Colorado high schoolers.


Why is lethal injection the preferred method? Firing squad is quicker although I guess it is a lot messier.
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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby The Dude » Fri Jan 17, 2014 14:29:29

it's not an effective deterrent and it's not meant to be one
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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby Doll Is Mine » Fri Jan 17, 2014 15:42:20

Swiggers wrote:The thing about deterrents is that they work on people who are rational. Most killers aren't rational.


This.

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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby Houshphandzadeh » Fri Jan 17, 2014 16:18:12

I'm into the retributive aspects of capitol punishment

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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby dajafi » Fri Jan 17, 2014 21:53:56

Houshphandzadeh wrote:I'm into the retributive aspects of capitol punishment


You joke, but pretty much this is the only way to rationalize it--as a societal statement on the horrible act committed.

Folks here have hit all the big points in the debate on the anti side, other than the really disturbing questions around application by race and the prospect of executing someone who didn't actually commit the crime. There's nothing efficient or effective about state executions; it's all judgment and revenge. For many Americans I suspect that's just fine, and their big grievances are with the process-based delays and expenses.

Edit: I should note that I'm not absolutely unsympathetic to this view. Were it up to me, I'd leave death an option for cases where there was overwhelming evidence, no repentence, no appeal for clemency from any corner and affirmation up and down the system--think Jeffrey Dahmer. I see no reason why we should pay to incarcerate proven monsters. This is hopefully not more than a once a decade proposition, but still.

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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby jerseyhoya » Fri Jan 17, 2014 23:16:09

Being president seems to age these people 10 years a term, and I think as the country has gotten larger, the media environment more intense, etc. the job has gotten even more taxing. Our last few presidents have been relatively young, healthy looking folks at the start, and look beaten up when it's over.

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What's Hillary gonna look like after two terms at 77? What would McCain look like now if he had won in 2008, the crypt keeper?

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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby pacino » Fri Jan 17, 2014 23:37:11

it really is sad
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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby pacino » Sat Jan 18, 2014 00:33:05

METADATA omggggggggg
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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby drsmooth » Sat Jan 18, 2014 01:32:54

TenuredVulture wrote:I've never seen any evidence that it's an effective deterrent. To be fair (and I'm absolutely opposed to the death penalty) that could change if the death penalty were imposed more often.


I thought I had posted in the books thread* a review of The Faithful Executioner, a sort of biography of Franz Schmidt, executioner for the city of Nuremburg during the late 1500s-early 1600s. He lawfully did away with about 1 person every 6 weeks for close to 45 years. Extraordinary # of executions per capita back then; Nuremburg was home to fewer than 50,000 people at the time.

To say nothing of the considerably more numerous non-lethal public tortures

It's a good little book

*couldn't find it there though
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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby td11 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 13:29:28

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Re: POLITICS thread: In appreciation of Rob Ford

Postby Bucky » Sat Jan 18, 2014 13:33:56

drsmooth wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:I've never seen any evidence that it's an effective deterrent. To be fair (and I'm absolutely opposed to the death penalty) that could change if the death penalty were imposed more often.


I thought I had posted in the books thread* a review of The Faithful Executioner, a sort of biography of Franz Schmidt, executioner for the city of Nuremburg during the late 1500s-early 1600s. He lawfully did away with about 1 person every 6 weeks for close to 45 years. Extraordinary # of executions per capita back then; Nuremburg was home to fewer than 50,000 people at the time.

To say nothing of the considerably more numerous non-lethal public tortures

It's a good little book

*couldn't find it there though



Interesting. So public service jobs weren't always 21-and-done.

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