Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS


Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby drsmooth » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:04:24



In her autobiography Thatcher reportedly wrote: I believed that the NHS was a service of which we could genuinely be proud...It delivered a high quality of care — especially when it came to acute illnesses — and at a reasonably modest unit cost, at least compared with some insurance-based systems.


The administrative costs of the NHS also reportedly doubled during her tenure, an increase attributed to her privatization initiatives.

She certainly changed the world of the UK
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby td11 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:09:27




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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby td11 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:29:43

And with the rise of China, state control, not economic liberalism, is being hailed as a model for emerging countries.


what
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby td11 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:36:35

i wonder how wiz feels
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:54:54

td11 wrote:
And with the rise of China, state control, not economic liberalism, is being hailed as a model for emerging countries.


what


Where's the quote from? This is actually a pretty widely held view--it's also used to justify political as well as economic authoritarianism. Some have gone so far as to use it to explain why China's economy "outperforms" India.
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby td11 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 13:02:31

from the Thatcher obit jerz posted.

and idk, i feel like i've read recent articles talking about china's economy doing well due to their conscious decision to become less state controlled and more capitalist
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Apr 08, 2013 14:22:13

td11 wrote:from the Thatcher obit jerz posted.

and idk, i feel like i've read recent articles talking about china's economy doing well due to their conscious decision to become less state controlled and more capitalist


You're probably right--the idea that's taken hold among many is that a free market+political authoritarianism is the way to go. Thus, you see Heritage among other groups ranking places like Singapore as most free, because for the right wing these days, freedom=economic freedom. This really is part of Thatcher's legacy, an evolution from the cold war mentality--"they're sons of bitches, but they're our sons of bitches" which didn't try to pretend that people like Somoza or Pinochet were defenders of freedom.
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby TenuredVulture » Mon Apr 08, 2013 14:44:24

I'm becoming irritated by the onslaught of Thatcher hagiography.
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby drsmooth » Mon Apr 08, 2013 15:00:03

TenuredVulture wrote:I'm becoming irritated by the onslaught of Thatcher hagiography.


She sometimes behaved like an old hagiogue, that's for sure
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby Phan In Phlorida » Mon Apr 08, 2013 16:57:04

Image
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby Youseff » Mon Apr 08, 2013 17:14:16

This is what a real tenderoni likes to do for you

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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby Wizlah » Mon Apr 08, 2013 17:53:07

td11 wrote:i wonder how wiz feels


Depressed, cold and angry all at once. Two tweets today nailed it for me. The first, from David Greig, a Scottish playwright:
"Taken aback by a sudden feeling of loss: not for her but for the sheer scale of all that she broke. A cold sadness."
And then in numerous places: "Thatcher is dead but Thatcherism is very much alive. Can't we swap?"

I didn't grow up in the UK after the first 5 years of my life, but we had friends who did, and the eighties were fuck hard if you worked in construction, manufacturing or the public sector. I've no firsthand experience what happened to the north of England, but I'll not forget chatting with a couple of former miners and shipbuilders in Sunderland's Stadium of Light, discovering that the football pitch had been built on top of the city's closed-down pit, within view of the city's closed-down shipyard. All she left Sunderland was football and she even tried her damnedest to mess that up.

She moved the economy of the UK toward the city, pushed forward deregulation and backed employers to the hilt at every opportunity. She instituted the first free market reforms within the NHS, setting up internal markets within the system, a forerunner to the public-private 'partnerships' and further privatising reforms of the last labour government and the current shower which are taking apart the NHS piece by piece. She let whole industries go to the wall without even bothering to think of a more creative approach to dealing with the fallout beyond dole queues.

Last week, a sick fuck who decided to burn down his house and 6 of his kids was described by the chancellor and the rightwing press as a product of a welfare state. That is now a national debate. The coalition government have pushed labour into responding on their terms, like somehow the problem is that any safety net we give poor people is an instant moral hazard which they will abuse and use to turn themselves into monsters. There are kids at work now who have no memory of Thatcher, but firmly believe that the poor (but never them) will take anything they can get because they don't want to work. That is her legacy. If something is done in the public sector, it is by definition inefficient, and will require private sector help in someway to fix it. That is her legacy.

She claimed Blair and New Labour as her proudest achievement, and I think that's the thing I hate about her most, because that's the thing I experienced. England will not look back now. I'm voting for an independent Scotland next year, and hoping against hope that I get a chance to set at least one part of these sorry, fucking useless excuse for a set of islands on a different, more productive course.

It's funny to think how much she praised the individual. I find it hard to visit many UK small towns now, because every high street looks the same. The same chains, the same bullshit sold to us all. Not a fucking shred of individuality anywhere. She praised the individual but shrugged off the idea that if you got dumped out of a job that you'd been doing for 30 years that there was a problem. You should just move to where the money was and get on with it. Connections you had made, communities you'd grown up with, none of that was important. There was no society. She got everybody thinking price was all, that the only information worth a nod was the price dictated by the market. Then everyone gets irate when (for example) horsemeat gets sold as beef, because no one questions the provenance of a good deal, and government money spent on tracking livestock movements is a waste, because a government interefering with the private sector is foolish. As if this was not a product of a set of values she has instilled up and down the UK and Ireland.

I can't see any possible reason to cheer or be happy today. If Scotland actually manages to vote for Independence next year, I'll smile my arse off, but fuck happiness today. Today is not a day to be happy at all.

Fucking Thatcher.
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby Wizlah » Mon Apr 08, 2013 18:03:03

A far better summary than I could manage:

She was the first woman Prime Minister but had little sympathy for the suffragettes (and the women’s movement in general) that broke the barriers to women’s progress, thus allowing her to rise up. She wanted to liberate Britons from the state but ended up granting Whitehall (Britain’s London-based functionaries) hitherto unheard of authoritarian powers. She sought to impose libertarian values, only to discover that she needed an autocratic state in order to do so (which explains nicely her fondness for, and defence of, General Pinochet). She preached judiciousness, on matters economic, and thrift, yet her government built the ‘British Miracle’ on the twin bubbles of real estate and the City created by spivs who worshipped her. She was keen to see the end of the old Etonian ruling circle but, unwittingly, created the conditions for the resurgence of that aristocratic clique (just take a look at the present cabinet). She championed a ‘share owners’ democracy’ but delivered a Britain in which ownership of businesses (and wealth) is more concentrated in the hands of a minority than at the time she became Prime Minister. She campaigned against totalitarianism in Moscow while insisting that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist who deserved to languish in gaol. Above all other contradictions, she argued passionately about a return to the Victorian moral life but gave rise to a regime in which it was impossible to imagine anything good being done for its own sake (as opposed to for profit).


And Larry Elliot on the economy:

Narrowly judged, the Thatcher economic revolution was a success. Britain's relative decline came to an end, although that was more due to slowdowns in countries such as France and Germany than an acceleration in UK productivity growth. The number of days lost through strikes tumbled. Nissan's arrival in the north-east showed that Britain was no longer the west's industrial pariah.

On the other hand, growth has been depressed because weak trade unions can no longer ensure wage increases keep pace with inflation. The government's welfare bill has been swollen by tax credits and housing benefit caused by the labour market reforms and council house sales of the 1980s. Britain's record on innovation and investment have been extremely poor, while the hollowing out of manufacturing left the economy over-dependent on the de-regulated City. Oil helped Thatcher paper over the cracks, but Britain's age-old problem – finding a way to pay its way in the world – remains. The last time the UK ran a trade surplus was the year of the Falklands war.
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby pacino » Mon Apr 08, 2013 18:04:34

CANT WAIT:
WikiLeaks has published more than 1.7m US records covering diplomatic or intelligence reports on every country in the world.

The data, which has not been leaked, comprises diplomatic records from the beginning of 1973 to the end of 1976, covering a variety of diplomatic traffic including cables, intelligence reports and congressional correspondence.

Henry Kissinger was US secretary of state and national security adviser during the period covered by the collection, and many of the reports were written by him or were sent to him. Thousands of the documents are marked NODIS (no distribution) or Eyes Only, as well as cables originally classed as secret or confidential.

Assange said WikiLeaks had undertaken a detailed analysis of the communications, adding that the information eclipsed Cablegate, a set of more than 250,000 US diplomatic cables published by WikiLeaks from November 2010 and over the following year. He said WikiLeaks had developed sophisticated technical systems to deal with complex and voluminous data.

Top secret documents were not available, while some others were lost or irreversibly corrupted for periods including December 1975 and March and June 1976, said Assange.


start searchin'
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby td11 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 18:48:44

sincere thank you wiz
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby Monkeyboy » Mon Apr 08, 2013 19:29:10

td11 wrote:sincere thank you wiz



Wiz does have a way with words.

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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby pacino » Mon Apr 08, 2013 23:15:57

Tim Johnson of South Dakota is now for marriage equality. This leaves only 3 Democratic Senators opposed to marriage equality: Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, Joe Manchin of West Virginia, and Mark Pryor of Arkansas

Pryror and Landrieu are up for re-election in 2014, so I doubt they'll make the leap.
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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby Werthless » Mon Apr 08, 2013 23:25:38

For all the brouhaha about lack of evidence of evolution, we've seen a lot of recent evolution in Democratic political positions on gay marriage, intelligently designed to follow recent polling. ;)

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Re: Arugments and Sensitivity Training Regarding POLITICS

Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Apr 09, 2013 00:34:47

Two people whom I generally do not agree with these days, and you all, the liberal hoards of BSG, may take them more seriously than the Economist

Andrew Sullivan - Thatcher, Liberator
David Ignatius - Margaret Thatcher's Revolution

Also just because


And Thatcher nailed why the Euro would be a disaster, saving the UK from joining it.

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