td11 wrote:because of industrialization, which depended on super cheap labor, no? 9 year olds worked in factories!

werthless and you don't think education is an important issue today, i think it's one of the most important issue (as far as cheap access to higher ed). you can't compare education today to pre-twentieth century times, it doesn't make sense.

Roger Dorn wrote:Agreed. I also don't understand why several "small-government" types have no reservations about giving the executive branch a legal recourse to kill American citizens. And yes I'm aware we have suspended the writ of habeus corpus in our history but we have also detained an entire ethnicity for the duration of a war as well. Excuse me if I'm leery on having the Executive branch continually usurp power.

PhillieMooDo wrote:Just became FB friends with an Uncle that's constantly posting these dumbass (usually untrue) anti-Obama pics. Regretting friending him. Posted a retort to his latest, also regretting this decision...

Werthless wrote:

td11 wrote:i think we completely disagree on the importance of education. i was just thanking PiP for bringing up the fact that what drove america's growth and prosperity into the 20th century" was largely the free labor of slavery. obviously, comparing anything today to that time period is apples and oranges, imo.

If slavery was the main driver of America's economic growth, why didn't all of the other countries with slavery grow as fast, especially the ones that abolished slavery after America? America grew faster than these other slave nations (Russia abolished at the same time as the US, African nations and the Ottoman empire and China all continued to allow slavery into the 20th century).

Interestingly, the highest decade of economic growth in US history was the 1880s... While the endpoints of decades are arbitrary cutpoints, the point is that economic growth did not decline with the abolition of slavery. This doesn't jive with your assertion that slavery was the primary factor leading to economic growth, if economic growth surged after we got rid of slavery.

What facts lead you to believe that slavery leads to economic growth?

In a letter of condolence to the people of Venezuela, Iran’s president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, struck a note of interfaith harmony on Wednesday, expressing confidence that the late Hugo Chávez would eventually be resurrected, along with Jesus and the Hidden Imam, a messianic figure in Shiite Islam.

According to the Persian-language text of the letter posted on the Iranian president’s official Web site, Mr. Ahmadinejad wrote: “I have no doubt he will come again along with all the righteous people and the Prophet Jesus and the only successor of the righteous generation, the perfect human,” a formulation used by Shiite Muslims to refer to the Hidden Imam, who disappeared in the ninth century but is expected to emerge from more than a millennium in hiding to redeem mankind.

Mr. Ahmadinejad’s note, sent as Iran declared a day of national mourning for “the Latin American anti-imperialist figure,” also said that Mr. Chávez had died of a “suspicious illness.” As Iran’s state-owned Press TV reported, hours before the Venezuelan president’s death was announced on Tuesday, his vice president, Nicolás Maduro, hinted darkly that foreign powers were responsible for causing the illnesses that killed both the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat and Mr. Chávez.

jerseyhoya wrote:Ahmadinejad Says Chávez Will Rise Again

In a letter of condolence to the people of Venezuela, Iran’s president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, struck a note of interfaith harmony on Wednesday, expressing confidence that the late Hugo Chávez would eventually be resurrected, along with Jesus and the Hidden Imam, a messianic figure in Shiite Islam.

According to the Persian-language text of the letter posted on the Iranian president’s official Web site, Mr. Ahmadinejad wrote: “I have no doubt he will come again along with all the righteous people and the Prophet Jesus and the only successor of the righteous generation, the perfect human,” a formulation used by Shiite Muslims to refer to the Hidden Imam, who disappeared in the ninth century but is expected to emerge from more than a millennium in hiding to redeem mankind.

Mr. Ahmadinejad’s note, sent as Iran declared a day of national mourning for “the Latin American anti-imperialist figure,” also said that Mr. Chávez had died of a “suspicious illness.” As Iran’s state-owned Press TV reported, hours before the Venezuelan president’s death was announced on Tuesday, his vice president, Nicolás Maduro, hinted darkly that foreign powers were responsible for causing the illnesses that killed both the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat and Mr. Chávez.

Werthless wrote:Two point, one on each post.

First, it's tempting to want to draw conclusions on smaller governments (comparing states) and scale upward (comparing nations), but I fear the dynamics are too different. With nearly free immigration between states, and the umbrella of the national government and institutions, the conditions are not easily comparable. When a wave of educated people move to NYC after getting their MBAs, does that mean that their education caused the economic growth, or the economic growth caused the most credentialed to follow the growth? With no immigration constraints, as there are between states, it's hard to say. With how easy it is more highly educated people to move to job centers (NYC, Bay area, etc), it is difficult to say whether the growth differentials are caused by California's educational system, or whether the whole United States system is sure to have created a tech hub and it happened to be in CA.

Also, I meant to say economic growth pre WWI, pre income tax, pre New Deal, etc. So not "through the 20th century," but "into the 20th century." Apologies.

Secondly, it's also tempting to want to extrapolate the education premium of individuals to the educational boost provided to GDP. I'm not sure that's going to hold, although the literature is mixed. That's why I cheekily pointed to the situation where if everyone pursued phds; the premium to holding a phd would obviously shrink.

Recent research has actually shown that the income boost of certain credentials may be a mirage. As you well know, we cannot easily separate the effect of intelligence (not just measured by IQ, but also emotional intelligence, work ethic, etc) and educational attainment on future income. It's quite certain that those with higher educational attainment also register higher on these other factors. This is why it's so interesting when we get these natural tests, such as when we compare students who got admitted into elite institutions and decided not to go with students who decided to go. Only low income students get an income boost from attending the elite institution, presumably from network effects and other factors. These other students succeed (as measured crudely by income) because of their other factors. Another natural test is a comparisonof 3 groups: high school dropouts, high school dropouts who got GEDs, and high school graduates. Who do the GED holders look most like? Studies have recently shown that while this group is as smart as high school graduates, as measured by IQ, they earn like high school dropouts who didnt get the GED. This suggests that the educational level is not as an important factor as emotional intelligence, work ethic in economic success. I know dajafi is more familiar with this study than I am, but others may find the above link interesting if you have not read about that study.

These two studies suggest that the income boost from higher education may be more of a sorting hat identifying those that would be most likely to succeed/earn high incomes than a driver of higher incomes. (Credentialing still plays a role, so education is still necessary under the current state of education)

Hopefully now, even if you disagree with my conclusion, my argument is clear. America's economic future does not depend on graduating as many people as possible with bachelor degrees and above. It depends on maintaining our economic freedom, continuing to promote a good work ethic, and a freer immigration system. Education is very important in the current situation, where employers often rely on credentials to identify hard workers (that's why I got my masters), but the system does not have to be that way. And pushing for more education is not going to fix our long-term economic growth problems.

td11 wrote:how is it a controversial thing to say that more education in general leads to more prosperity?

jerseyhoya wrote:

td11 wrote:

jerseyhoya wrote:

td11 wrote:i don't care about this story at all, but since jerz probably won't post this

The Hooker Who Wasn't There

My new Slate piece looks at the "sex scandal" involving Sen. Bob Menendez, which is turning out to look more like a thrilling conspiracy, by opening the Pandorica of conservative media.

dajafi posted the Washington Post article two days ago

just doing my due diligence!

He also included a shot for it not being posted already when he posted the link. It's good to know you guys think about me.

Swiggers wrote:

PhillieMooDo wrote:Just became FB friends with an Uncle that's constantly posting these dumbass (usually untrue) anti-Obama pics. Regretting friending him. Posted a retort to his latest, also regretting this decision...

The "Hide" option is your friend.

jerseyhoya wrote:Ahmadinejad Says Chávez Will Rise Again

Werthless wrote: The BIG issue with me is the corresponding check on this power, and whether Congress/Courts can evaluate and punish improper use of force, drones or non-drones, by the federal government (and the executive branch in particular).