Desperately need a drink of politics thread

by **jerseyhoya** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 19:59:06

Roger Dorn wrote:http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/eric-holder-drone-strikes-against-americans-on-u.s.-soil-are-legal/article/2523319#.UTaEwvq9LCQ

Just in case anyone cares Holder says the President has the legal recourse to use drones against Americans on U.S. soil. Wow.

In an emergency situation akin to the 9/11 attacks.

by **td11** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 20:02:42

Roger Dorn wrote:http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/eric-holder-drone-strikes-against-americans-on-u.s.-soil-are-legal/article/2523319#.UTaEwvq9LCQ

Just in case anyone cares Holder says the President has the legal recourse to use drones against Americans on U.S. soil. Wow.

Dorner could of been stopped quicker

by **Phan In Phlorida** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 20:10:21

bleh wrote:The best government would be PiP as a brutal and corrupt dictator.

by **dajafi** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 21:25:23

So I think Allentown posted the key point, which is that "self-interest" is a slippery concept. Editorially I'd add that it's pretty damn presumptuous for anyone, be he Thomas Frank or John Fund (google, bitches), to define anyone else's self-interest and thus derive their "appropriate" votes.

And like doc, I'm intrigued to hear more about werthless's version of America's rise to economic greatness, and the contributions of our low-information, low-participation, how-can-these-dumbasses-even-feed-and-dress-themselves voters...

Finally, Hugo Chavez esta muerte. Joe Kennedy presumably in some quiet corner weeping.

by **jerseyhoya** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 22:09:44

A selection of readings on the death of Hugo Chavez

Hugo Chávez, R.I.P.: He Empowered the Poor and Gutted Venezuela - Decent, short 'the good, the bad and the ugly' look at Chavez's reign
Venezuela - Chavez's Authoritarian Legacy - Human Rights Watch's account of Chavez's administration
Hugo Chavez's Economic Legacy in Two Graphs - Slower growth than South American neighbors despite huge natural resource advantages and rampant hyperinflation
Hugo Boss - Chris Hitchens on Hugo Chavez, 9/11 truther, conspiracy theorist and crazy person
Why Democrats Shouldn't Eulogize Hugo Chavez - Think Progress pointing out a variety of problems, including noting that Chavez liked to trot out a bit of anti-Semitism from time to time
Hugo and the Hereafter - Write up on Chavez's $140 million mega-mausoleum for Simon Bolivar, where he is rumored to likely be buried as well
With Chavez Ailing, Venezuela Accuses U.S. of Spying (and Spreading Cancer) - As Chavez was about to kick it, his chosen successor was doing work

by **drsmooth** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 22:23:40

jerseyhoya wrote:A selection of readings on the death of Hugo Chavez

Hugo Chávez, R.I.P.: He Empowered the Poor and Gutted Venezuela - Decent, short 'the good, the bad and the ugly' look at Chavez's reign
Venezuela - Chavez's Authoritarian Legacy - Human Rights Watch's account of Chavez's administration
Hugo Chavez's Economic Legacy in Two Graphs - Slower growth than South American neighbors despite huge natural resource advantages and rampant hyperinflation
Hugo Boss - Chris Hitchens on Hugo Chavez, 9/11 truther, conspiracy theorist and crazy person
Why Democrats Shouldn't Eulogize Hugo Chavez - Think Progress pointing out a variety of problems, including noting that Chavez liked to trot out a bit of anti-Semitism from time to time
Hugo and the Hereafter - Write up on Chavez's $140 million mega-mausoleum for Simon Bolivar, where he is rumored to likely be buried as well
With Chavez Ailing, Venezuela Accuses U.S. of Spying (and Spreading Cancer) - As Chavez was about to kick it, his chosen successor was doing work

you do realize no one here has a mote of interest in Hugo Chavez or imagines he is now or ever was deserving of anyone's attention

by **The Dude** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 22:25:14

i think it's pretty damn interesting, myself. i love reading about people like this

by **TenuredVulture** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 22:30:30

PhillieMooDo wrote:Just became FB friends with an Uncle that's constantly posting these dumbass (usually untrue) anti-Obama pics. Regretting friending him. Posted a retort to his latest, also regretting this decision...

So, we're cousins then. I had to block him. My father thinks he's a dope.

by **drsmooth** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 23:07:15

The Dude wrote:i think it's pretty damn interesting, myself. i love reading about people like this

by **pacino** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 23:12:21

poverty dropped sharply under him, but he was a pretty crazy antagonistic person, and the country has seen large inflation over the past two years. who knows what will happen

by **PhillieMooDo** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 23:13:57

TenuredVulture wrote:
PhillieMooDo wrote:Just became FB friends with an Uncle that's constantly posting these dumbass (usually untrue) anti-Obama pics. Regretting friending him. Posted a retort to his latest, also regretting this decision...

So, we're cousins then. I had to block him. My father thinks he's a dope.

by **Wheels Tupay** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 23:23:57

jerseyhoya wrote:
Roger Dorn wrote:http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/eric-holder-drone-strikes-against-americans-on-u.s.-soil-are-legal/article/2523319#.UTaEwvq9LCQ

Just in case anyone cares Holder says the President has the legal recourse to use drones against Americans on U.S. soil. Wow.

In an emergency situation akin to the 9/11 attacks.

Still can't legally do so.

by **jerseyhoya** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 23:31:11

Wheels Tupay wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:
Roger Dorn wrote:http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/eric-holder-drone-strikes-against-americans-on-u.s.-soil-are-legal/article/2523319#.UTaEwvq9LCQ

Just in case anyone cares Holder says the President has the legal recourse to use drones against Americans on U.S. soil. Wow.

In an emergency situation akin to the 9/11 attacks.

Still can't legally do so.

Can't legally do so, why? Would it have been illegal for the scrambled fighter jets on 9/11 to take down Flight 93? Should it be illegal?

by **Wheels Tupay** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 23:40:25

They would have been targeting the terrorists not the American passengers.

Obama can't just drop a drone's bomb on an american. It is illegal. It is against the 5th amendment.

And, yes, it should be illegal. That is the point of having a checks and balance system. So Obama (or any other president) can't just kill someone because they feel like it.

by **dajafi** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 23:40:35

The Dude wrote:i think it's pretty damn interesting, myself. i love reading about people like this

Agree. Consequential guy. It sort of amazes me that anyone would defend him, but still.

by **jerseyhoya** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 23:42:46

Wheels Tupay wrote:They would have been targeting the terrorists not the American passengers.

Obama can't just drop a drone's bomb on an american. It is illegal. It is against the 5th amendment.

Did they know the terrorists were not American citizens at the time? Should it matter if they're American citizens or not?

I don't think they did, at least not definitively, and I don't think it should.

by **Werthless** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 23:47:56

td11 wrote:
Werthless wrote:But do they make for more effective government? Do they result in societies that codify laws protecting freedom? I doubt there is any relationship, causal or even observational, between education (above a certain minimum level) and increasingly effective government.

i want 2 preserve these sentences 4ever

dajafi wrote:And like doc, I'm intrigued to hear more about werthless's version of America's rise to economic greatness, and the contributions of our low-information, low-participation, how-can-these-dumbasses-even-feed-and-dress-themselves voters...

Education<>IQ.

dajafi, I thought you would have picked up on that, considering I repeatedly referred to education above a "certain minimal level." Perhaps I sould have been more explicit: I can see the gains to having a literate populace, but it's not clear that higher economic growth will ensue if everyone pursues phds. The high growth rates of the 18th and 19th century in this country occurred even with much more limited institutional educational systems.

doc, I know he reads what he wants to read. And td11 probably didnt realize I was referring to quantifiable relationships in some sort of regression or multivariate time series framework.

Presumably, MonkeyBoy was not lamenting that democracy would be more effective if everyone was smarter, and had higher IQs. So we look to educational attainment, or scholastic achievement. And while scholastic achievement is only a borderline predictor of economic growth since 1975 (Some studies show a positive correlation [Lynn and Vanhanen (2002, 2006)], others show none [Chen and Luoh (2010) ], it's likely that the causal link heads in the other direction. Flynn (1984, 1987) and Lynn and Hampson (1986) argue that IQ is a consequence of prosperity, schooling, or other environmental factors that prevail in highly developed countries. So the increase in IQ and also formal education is likely a result of economic wealth, and not the other way around. This is one reason why we're rapidly growing a more educated population without seeing increasing economic growth.

All of this is to say that it's not formal education that drove American prosperity from the 18th century through the beginning of the 20th century. We had our highest growth rates in this time, and education was much less robust than it is today, as we limp along with a long-term growth path of 2-3%. Our economic growth through the 20th century has been driven by a combination of a system centered on economic freedom, over-abundance of natural resources, a culture of work ethic, and an open immigration system. And each of those 4 pillars is slowly eroding.

Preserve those last 2 sentences 4ever.

by **The Dude** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 23:49:56

wheels your flight 93 response is awful. and i think drones in america is scary

by **Werthless** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 23:59:11

The Dude wrote:wheels your flight 93 response is awful. and i think drones in america is scary

He's actually done a good job of convincing me that it should be legal. In the same way that a police officer can fire his weapon at someone threatening his life or that of others, a President can decide to use his weapons to subdue an imminent threat. The issue is that Congress should then be able to bring action if misused.

by **dajafi** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 00:17:38

In terms of linkage between education and economic growth... PhDs, maybe not. College degrees, yes. Think about the difference between Massachusetts and Mississippi. I haven't looked at this, but I'm guessing there's a pretty strong correlation between percentage of a state's population with postsecondary degrees and average per capita income. And obviously it's true for individuals.

Werthless wrote:Our economic growth through the 20th century has been driven by a combination of a system centered on economic freedom, over-abundance of natural resources, a culture of work ethic, and an open immigration system.

Hmmm. I recall you're not a huge fan of unions, yet our growth was most robust in the heyday of organized labor... when, you'd probably have it, we were least "free." Though maybe you're making an argument against regulation... in which case again I'd point to the growth under the post-New Deal consensus versus the mostly deregulating presidents between Carter and Bush 43.

In terms of "culture of work ethic," this declinist argument would seem to fly in the face of data showing we're either working more hours or, in the case of the millions still under-employed (THANKS OBAMA), wishing we could.

I'd also suggest you go back and look at the history of "open immigration" between about 1920 and 1965 or so. Spoiler: not so much with the open.

The resources, I'll give you. But one big factor was that the rest of the world was pretty much fucked for a few decades in the middle of the 20th century there. And a second was that we had a handful of geniuses whose discoveries and follow-through--usually but not always with major help from the evil gummit, either through R&D investments, tax preferences or purchasing--built new companies and sometimes whole industries.

Yes, quite a few of them were college dropouts. But the people they hired generally weren't.

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