Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby jamiethekiller » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:39:49

JFLNYC wrote:
pacino wrote:Corporate profits and money on hand are higher than ever. Productivity is up. Wages and benefits are completely stagnant. Yep, pensions are the issue.


The whole premise that continuing downward pressure on workers' wages and retiree benefits will benefit the economy in the long run is faulty. Because Americans are living longer in retirement, cutting or abolishing pensions makes more and more retirees dependent on the state, thereby increasing entitlement growth. Alternatively, expecting workers to save more for retirement out of their shrinking wages, slows consumer demand even further in an economy which is 70% consumer-based. That hurts the economy as a whole.

Henry Ford was right:

In 1914, not long after the Ford Motor Company came out with the Model T, Ford made the startling announcement that he would pay his workers the unheard-of wage of $5 a day.

Not only was it a matter of social justice, Ford wrote, but paying high wages was also smart business. When wages are low, uncertainty dogs the marketplace and growth is weak. But when pay is high and steady, Ford asserted, business is more secure because workers earn enough to become good customers. They can afford to buy Model Ts.

This is not to suggest that Ford single-handedly created the American middle class. But he was one of the first business leaders to articulate what economists call “the virtuous circle of growth”: well-paid workers generating consumer demand that in turn promotes business expansion and hiring. Other executives bought his logic, and just as important, strong unions fought for rising pay and good benefits in contracts like the 1950 “Treaty of Detroit” between General Motors and the United Auto Workers.

Riding the dynamics of the virtuous circle, America enjoyed its best period of sustained growth in the decades after World War II, from 1945 to 1973, even though income tax rates were far higher than today. It created not only unprecedented middle-class prosperity but also far greater economic equality than today.

* * *

Globalization, including the rise of Asia, and technological innovation can’t explain all or even most of today’s gaping inequality; if they did, we would see in other advanced economies the same hyperconcentration of wealth and the same stagnation of middle-class wages as in the United States. But we don’t.

In Germany, still a manufacturing and export powerhouse, average hourly pay has risen five times faster since 1985 than in the United States. The secret of Germany’s success, says Klaus Kleinfeld, who ran the German electrical giant Siemens before taking over the American aluminum company Alcoa in 2008, is “the social contract: the willingness of business, labor and political leaders to put aside some of their differences and make agreements in the national interest.”

In short, German leaders have practiced stakeholder capitalism and followed the century-old wisdom of Henry Ford, while American business and political leaders have dismantled the dynamics of the “virtuous circle” in pursuit of downsizing, offshoring and short-term profit and big dividends for their investors.


When Capitalists Cared


brb, printing and pasting on my bosses door

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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:40:23

mozartpc27 wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:Taxpayers take on the financial burden of management/shareholders in negotiations with public sector unions without having a seat at the table.


Does it bother you at all that this is completely false? If you are talking about truly "public" institutions (not public/private partnerships), pretty much every public sector union negotiates with representatives of management that are either elected, or ultimately responsible to folks who are elected. A school board is elected, and either appoints a negotiator from among its members or hires one; or a fat governor continues the state government of a local distrcit, then appoints a new superintendant, who designates her negotiators; etc. Taxpayers have someone representing them. Perhaps you refer to something like Rutgers University, which admittedly has a school president who, through human resources, hires a negotiating team; but that school president of course serves at the pleasure of the Board of Trustees, most of whom are appointments by fat governors.

One way or another, there is an effective management group that negotiates with public sector unions, and that is ultimately responsible to elected officials, who are in turn responsible to - you guessed it - the taxpayer.

It's not completely false. Elected officials (or their appointed negotiator) are not exclusively (or often even primarily) representatives of taxpayer interests during negotiations with public sector unions. Unlike the management/labor dynamic in the private sector, the labor side in the public sector plays an active role in picking management through campaigning/endorsing/fundraising for politicians. Elected officials have to factor in whether they're willing to face the wrath of public sector unions during campaign season if they take a stand in favor of taxpayer interests.

Concentrated benefits vs. diffuse costs means like anything else in gov't - farm subsidies, free trade - it's usually easier to the side with louder bunch even if it's not good policy.

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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby jeff2sf » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:42:02

right, good come back there sport. You haven't had an original thought in your head since you signed up to be a Democrat. You consult the playbook and then go full speed ahead. Your opinions are predictable and tiresome and then you get surprised when you get any push back.

And again, I agree with you on 80% of the positions for christ's sake. So if you're pissing me off with your self-righteous blather, there's a good chance you're alienating a group of people who aren't as committed to your way of thinking.
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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Doll Is Mine » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:43:32

I validate pacino's views.

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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby pacino » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:45:05

jeff2sf wrote:right, good come back there sport. You haven't had an original thought in your head since you signed up to be a Democrat. You consult the playbook and then go full speed ahead. Your opinions are predictable and tiresome and then you get surprised when you get any push back.

And again, I agree with you on 80% of the positions for christ's sake. So if you're pissing me off with your self-righteous blather, there's a good chance you're alienating a group of people who aren't as committed to your way of thinking.

Think what you think, the fuck do I care? The next time I think to myself 'oh no is Jeff2sfr going to view me as a party hack' Im going to slap myself.

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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:47:03

The Nightman Cometh wrote:You are weird during election season.

If laughing at someone for dying due to smoke inhalation caused by burning the American flag is wrong, I don't want to be right

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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby jeff2sf » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:48:59

Pacino, you're acting like a spoiled 7 year old. You're more than welcome to spout the same old shit, just like i'm more than welcome to call you on your hackery. You're terrible at this. Now if you want to try to censor me because I'm calling you on your stuff, I wouldn't be surprised. But you're terrible at this. And just because a bunch of people in this thread agrees with you doesn't make it so. Whenever someone engages you just spout more orthodoxy.

But stop with the "We get it". You're a democrat, unions are great, rich people are bad, women's rights, we get it.
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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby RichmondPhilsFan » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:49:00

jeff2sf wrote:And again, I agree with you on 80% of the positions for christ's sake. So if you're pissing me off with your self-righteous blather, there's a good chance you're alienating a group of people who aren't as committed to your way of thinking.

It's the internet. We're talking politics on a sports message board. There are around 12 regular posters and possibly as many as 25 more who pop in frequently in these politics threads.

Who in the fuck is he going to alienate?

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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby jamiethekiller » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:49:25

i yelled at Adi for beating the redundant drum on friday night.

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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby jeff2sf » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:50:20

I assume he talks that same way to others outside of the board. You know that type. The young liberal that is sure everyone who doesn't agree with him is evil. Just like the holy rollers that think if you once held a girl's hand you're evil.
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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby pacino » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:51:28

Too bad I'm a mod.

You need to stop talking about me. Stop with the boner. I don't care about you or your dumb opinions and it annoys you. Thats all.

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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby jeff2sf » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:52:45

yes, too bad, you want to capriciously punish me?
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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Phan In Phlorida » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:52:58

jerseyhoya wrote:
The Nightman Cometh wrote:You are weird during election season.

If laughing at someone for dying due to smoke inhalation caused by burning the American flag is wrong, I don't want to be right

The flag was probably made in China, so it may have contained lead and asbestos.
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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby RichmondPhilsFan » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:52:59

jeff2sf wrote:I assume he talks that same way to others outside of the board. You know that type. The young liberal that is sure everyone who doesn't agree with him is evil. Just like the holy rollers that think if you once held a girl's hand you're evil.

Honestly, that's a pretty big assumption. And that's his problem. Don't be the third party who comes running into a thread and bitches about someone being mean when no one else is complaining.

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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby pacino » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:53:19

No I'd tell you what I truly think about you.

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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Monkeyboy » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:53:59

jerseyhoya wrote:
Monkeyboy wrote:
pacino wrote:mitt praised a factory in china where women sleep four to a bed and are only allowed to go home around after the chinese new year. and he believed the bosses who said 'the fences we have around the facility are to keep people OUT from trying to work and then ask for compensation!!!'

worker's paradise, rural china

This reminds me of those republican trips to the Marshall Islands (I think that was the place). Horrible factory conditions, horrible pay, and the republican officials thought we could learn something from them.

They want to turn the clock way back to a time before unions when people worked in terribly unsafe conditions for little pay and no future or chance for advancement. Zero upward mobility would give Mitt an eternal boner. Heck, maybe they can even put kids back to work.

The entire point of the story was that being in America was good because we don't have working conditions like those in China



except he is against the very organizations that created those good conditions. You can't have it both ways. Oh wait, yes you can if you are a rich enough.

He does the same thing with taxes. Taxes are bad: Hey, those lazy bastards aren't paying taxes they shouldn't have to pay: I think I'll hide my money in the Cayman Islands so I don't have to pay taxes.

His message is so muddled with crazy that it doesn't even make sense.

And the more that comes from him in his candid moments, the more I think he really is an evil asshole. And no, I don't mean evil in the religious sense. I mean it in the no empathy or compassion sense. How many times does he have to make fun of the poor and unemployed or call everyone not in his tax bracket a lazy drain on society before his base, many of whom he is talking about, start to pay attention? At this point, I'm of the mind that if these people can't see it now, when it is as plain as the noses on their faces, then they will never see it. The republican party doesn't care about anyone but the rich. Period. It is built to push the agenda of the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class. Period. You can vote against the brown guy if he makes you that uncomfortable or if you are convinced public sector unions are destroying the country (lol), but just be aware that you are voting against your own interest.
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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby Wolfgang622 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:55:03

jeff2sf wrote:You can't really be this sillywith regard to pensions. Pensions are killing business. They were handed out at a time where people didn't live that long and even when they did, managers didn't care or didn't appreciate that an open ended fat commitment was way too much for the work being done.


1. Shall I assume you'll be voting for Romney, Ryan, and the partial-privatization of social security then?

2. Not the best example, but here is at least one little piece on the beef between the NFL and its officials. I think the NFL's attitude towards the pension v. IRA question is instructive about how big, highly profitable businesses view pensions, and what they can really afford.
Last edited by Wolfgang622 on Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:55:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby philliesphhan » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:55:26

jerseyhoya wrote:
The Nightman Cometh wrote:You are weird during election season.

If laughing at someone for dying due to smoke inhalation caused by burning the American flag is wrong, I don't want to be right


Article doesnt really specify that he was the one burning the flag but that point doesnt matter much. Really fucking weird to laugh at someone who died from inhaling smoke unless they were trying to burn another person.

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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby jeff2sf » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:55:30

I'm not complaining for someone else, I'm complaining for myself. It's brutal to read this thread right now. It almost makes me want to vote for Romney and I'm sure I don't want to vote for Romney.
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Re: Don't Fact Check Me, Bro: The Politics Thread

Postby pacino » Tue Sep 18, 2012 15:56:40

jeff2sf wrote:I'm not complaining for someone else, I'm complaining for myself. It's brutal to read this thread right now. It almost makes me want to vote for Romney and I'm sure I don't want to vote for Romney.


you made it unreadable you miserable fuck. get off my dick. thanks. that's the last time i'll talk to you. email another mod if you are pissed.
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Calvinball wrote:Pacino was right.

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