Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby Bucky » Tue Apr 03, 2012 07:57:31

so, what's the thing about merit pay?

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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby pacino » Tue Apr 03, 2012 08:13:40

cant be implemented the way the reasonable advocates want, so it will instead crush teacher pay.
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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby TenuredVulture » Tue Apr 03, 2012 09:18:31

Jeff, there's nothing inconsistent in believing that 1. Merit pay does not work and 2. Incompetent teachers should not be in the classroom.

Here's the thing though--merit pay tied to test scores is dumb. It's slightly less dumb to consider "value added" looking at changes in student achievement over time.

However, what do we mean by "doesn't work?" It seems to me to show education reform works or doesn't work would require a longitudinal study of decades. The effects of a one year reform are not going to be permanent. But what happens to a child who spends k-12 in a reform condition? That is, you'd have to look at whatever critical dependent variables you're interested in when the child in the experimental condition is 18, 20, 30, and so on before you really know anything.

Now,we can look at places like Finland and South Korea, places with reputations for outstanding education and look there instead of at a one year or even five year study. And if we want something like that, we're talking about pretty revolutionary changes that go well beyond implementation of merit pay.

But really, I don't think it's even that complicated why we won't do that. All we really need to do is look at the kind of undergraduates entering teacher education programs in the US and begin to see that first of all, they spend a huge chunk of their undergraduate careers not learning the subject matter they will teach but rather how to teach. Second, they are rarely the best performing students. And in my experience, they are often wretched. And while it's not systematic, I've observed that a student who half-asses it through college is also likely to half-ass her teaching job as well.

Top notch students don't find teaching appealing because they will not be treated like professionals and instead curriculum decisions and such will be micromanaged by an ever growing army of parasitical administrators and curriculum coaches and other people who were probably motivated by both money and the desire to get out of the class room because let's face it, children are in general little demons.
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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby TenuredVulture » Tue Apr 03, 2012 09:46:05

Also, we sort of do have widespread merit pay in the US--schools in more affluent areas tend to pay teachers more, and thus when a slot opens at one of those schools they are flooded with applicants. Of course, you can't automatically assume that they hire the best teachers and that's why those schools perform well. But it does add to our story. It might be the case that the best US public schools are as good as public schools anywhere in the world.
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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Apr 03, 2012 14:05:45

Santorum spokesman blames ‘vitriol’ against candidate for expected DC loss

"Obviously Wisconsin is going to be a close race, we're not sure about Maryland or Washington, D.C.," Gidley (Santorum spokesman) said Tuesday on MSNBC. "We expect Mitt Romney to do well in the D.C., area, no shock there, in fact it might even be unanimous — I don't know that we'll pick up a single vote in D.C. because of the vitriol D.C. has for a someone like Rick Santorum who wants to shake things up here in Washington."


THAT is a world class attempt at spin right there. Santorum didn't get on the DC ballot, so he won't be receiving votes there tonight for that reason. "I don't know that we'll pick up a single vote in D.C. because of the vitriol D.C. has for a someone like Rick Santorum who wants to shake things up here in Washington" ... goddamn, that's brash spinning.

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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby Monkeyboy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 14:08:21

Barry Jive wrote:you sure?


lol, I just realized that I posted it 4 times
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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby Monkeyboy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 14:26:38

jeff2sf wrote:
Now, the reason I'm not going to search for it is because what we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is the way the unions want things done now has resulted in disaster and the ruination of the American teaching system. .


I have agreed that many unions have gone too far in defending teachers who don't deserve it. But because one thing is true doesn't mean you should spend a bunch of money on something that has been shown not to work time and time again. I hope you understand the flaw in your logic, unless you think two wrongs make a right. I agree something needs to be done. I just don't think that thing is merit pay.


jeff2sf wrote:I'd be, somewhat, ok with settling for being able to blowing up tenure and removing poorly performing teachers. A natural sideline to that is to pay the teachers who aren't terrible more. If you're saying we can't figure that out, then fine, we'll just fire all the bad teachers, keep the good teachers at the same rate and move on. Is that a good solution? .


I agree about the tenure thing. There needs to be ways to fire people who aren't doing their jobs. I have no problem with raising pay to try to get more quality people to consider education. That would mean paying good teachers more. So I think we agree.

jeff2sf wrote:The point is, we're going to keep trying to get the merit thing right, and we've got years or even decades to go before it mirrors the terrible status quo of unions and tenure.


I have no problem with pilot programs trying different things. If you find a program that works, I'm on board.

jeff2sf wrote:And give me a break with this idea that principals are going to suddenly just play favorites/nepotism if they're given some control over the merit process. Like the whole system will just fall apart. Principals are going to generally favor people who are good at their jobs and don't cause problems for them. If you throw in an element of merit pay for the principals, as someone upthread suggested, you increase the odds even more that the principals are going to play fair. .


I'm just relating what I was told about conditions in the south before the unions. You may not be aware of it, but the education system in the south was in shambles. It's much better than what it was. And part of the reason for that is the unions. Some unions make poor decisions, but they are not on some crusade to destroy america's education system. If there was no resistance to some of these programs, the direction of the system would change every time the governor or legislature changed. Do some unions go too far in their resistance to new ideas. Yup. And there's plenty of blame to go around in that regard.

[/quote]


jeff2sf wrote: I mean it's like you think there are right now, a cadre of principals just rubbing their hands in glee about the chance to finally be allowed to be the evil people you know them to be.


I don't even know what you're talking about
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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Apr 03, 2012 20:33:42

Romney wins Maryland, possibly by a whole lot.

If Romney can win MD-06, which is mostly rural, western MD, that would be a pretty good sign leading into the PA primary. Maybe Santorum will just go away.

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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby drsmooth » Tue Apr 03, 2012 20:46:34

jerseyhoya wrote:Romney wins Maryland, possibly by a whole lot.

If Romney can win MD-06, which is mostly rural, western MD, that would be a pretty good sign leading into the PA primary. Maybe Santorum will just go away.


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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby Polar Bear Phan » Tue Apr 03, 2012 21:17:45

So, at what point does it become obvious that Romney will win Wisconsin and how much after that will they actually project it? I'll say 10:15 and 11:00...

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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Apr 03, 2012 21:28:22

Fox just called for Mitt

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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby Polar Bear Phan » Tue Apr 03, 2012 21:31:27

Those exit polls must have been really bad for Santorum.

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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Apr 03, 2012 21:36:59

CNN calls too

Wonder what they're seeing. I was kind of expecting Romney to run better in Green Bay and Madison.

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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby CalvinBall » Tue Apr 03, 2012 21:38:25

yeah only 8 percent in too. weird.

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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Apr 03, 2012 21:42:06

I mean, there's nothing in yet from the Milwaukee suburbs and he's still winning. He probably will end up winning by a lot. I just don't get why you don't call right at 9 PM if you're gonna call after so little comes in.

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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby drsmooth » Tue Apr 03, 2012 21:43:19

jerseyhoya wrote:I mean, there's nothing in yet from the Milwaukee suburbs and he's still winning. He probably will end up winning by a lot. I just don't get why you don't call right at 9 PM if you're gonna call after so little comes in.


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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby drsmooth » Tue Apr 03, 2012 21:44:28

i mean, if I were Frothy I'd protest the lack of some kind of voter ID requirement
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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby Polar Bear Phan » Tue Apr 03, 2012 21:45:25

The only thing I could see is that one of the areas coming in is a bellwether and suggests Romney wins easily.

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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby TenuredVulture » Tue Apr 03, 2012 22:08:23

It's clear the fix is in.
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Re: Is It November Yet? Politics Thread

Postby Polar Bear Phan » Tue Apr 03, 2012 22:15:42

jerseyhoya wrote:Romney wins Maryland, possibly by a whole lot.

If Romney can win MD-06, which is mostly rural, western MD, that would be a pretty good sign leading into the PA primary. Maybe Santorum will just go away.


Looks like he'll win it easily. Only trailing in one county in the district.

Also, Jon Hunstman has a higher percentage in DC than Gingrich has in Wisconsin.
Last edited by Polar Bear Phan on Tue Apr 03, 2012 22:25:09, edited 1 time in total.

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