Vox, I did a Bible Study on Jesus' parable about the unforgiving slave. I talked about how we are a culture that pretty much doesn't understand forgiveness.

One man sat across from me and said, "I DON'T FORGIVE ANYTHING WRONG THAT HAPPENED TO ME. AND I'M NOT GOING TO FORGIVE 9/11. WE CAN'T FORGET WHAT HAPPENED." (caps because of anger) He went on a fairly loud tirade that had a good portion of the restaurant looking in the direction of our little alcove." He was angry. I don't know what else to call it. And he was downright pissed at me because I should know better as a Christian American.

Let me go back - saying "fuck you" isn't what I mean, or what I intend. I was eating and getting to the point. Being all hip and cool and above 9/11 is definitely an opinion that people have. I don't seek to change that opinion, but I decided that I wasn't going to read and roll my eyes as I normally do, but respond.

My dad just gave me a shirt that honors Michael Horrocks. He went to West Chester University and played football there. He was one of the pilots that died that day. The university is honoring him today by unveiling a statue of him at the football stadium and having a flyby before kick off. The shirts says "never forget" on it. So suck it.

kruker wrote:I get your not emotional about it. Not criticizing that. But invalidating others emotional response by implying whatever with "devastated" rubs me the wrong way.

The contention that that it "had absolutely nothing to do with them" is incredibly myopic.

There's a whole lot to say about what gpicaro said in those few sentences.

Not really. No need to get all psychiatrist on me. You're entitled to your opinion just as I am. Maybe I come into contract with way more well-known, over-dramatic, attention-needing people than you do daily. Could just be as simple as that.

Rev_Beezer wrote:Vox, I did a Bible Study on Jesus' parable about the unforgiving slave. I talked about how we are a culture that pretty much doesn't understand forgiveness.

One man sat across from me and said, "I DON'T FORGIVE ANYTHING WRONG THAT HAPPENED TO ME. AND I'M NOT GOING TO FORGIVE 9/11. WE CAN'T FORGET WHAT HAPPENED." (caps because of anger) He went on a fairly loud tirade that had a good portion of the restaurant looking in the direction of our little alcove." He was angry. I don't know what else to call it. And he was downright pissed at me because I should know better as a Christian American.

So you think this guy that you know means "never forgive" (or stay angry) instead of never forget.

I'm not going to debate this, I'm sick of high minded amateur psychoanalysis of people who do care about what happened and do have legitimate concerns about what is and has been happening since as if they are mentally ill or somehow defective.

That's fine- but please don't think I see myself as "too cool" for 9/11. It was one of the worst days of many a person's life. I can think of maybe three or four other days that would rank ahead of it for me personally, but it was horrible.

I still struggle with what our response as a people should be. I hate the concept of war, but I accept that sometimes there are times when it needs to happen. Also, I hate the fact that you can't talk about the pain of the day without someone trying to politicize the damn thing, or AT LEAST politicizing it in a way that is, in my opinion, schismatic or hurtful. We have become more fractured as a nation since then, not less, and that is a sad state of affairs for who we are. We had a chance to really be united. Instead, we had two political parties that were hellbent on making people be "on their team".

Just my opinion.

Well, I went to work, which was on Wall Street, that morning. I walked home after the Towers came down with probably thousands of other people, breathing in stuff I don't really want to think about, unable to see through the dust until we got to the Brooklyn Bridge and the day revealed itself as impossibly beautiful. I remember it all pretty vividly--that horrible day and the numbness we all felt for the next week. A silent procession of the fire companies up Seventh Avenue in Brooklyn a few days later, the sidewalks lined with strangers who were neighbors, all of us crying.

And I'm increasingly disgusted by what it's become. To me, this day feels like an American Yom Kippur--the Jewish Day of Atonement (which is a week from today, as it happens), when it's proper to think about one's own life, one's own actions, how we're all at the mercy of fate (or God, if you prefer), how all we can do as individuals and citizens is try to live up to our best values, to love and appreciate our families and friends and communities.

What I see so much of now is vile, endlessly cynical politicians reaching for power by simplifying at best and mischaracterizing at worst what happened that day, ironically replicating the same blind hate and rage that brought the Towers down in the first place.

i got an off-duty stripper's number last night

CalvinBall wrote:My dad just gave me a shirt that honors Michael Horrocks. He went to West Chester University and played football there. He was one of the pilots that died that day. The university is honoring him today by unveiling a statue of him at the football stadium and having a flyby before kick off. The shirts says "never forget" on it. So suck it.

I think that's a little bit different..... oh, screw it. I knew one day I'd convince everyone I was a jerkoff.

Beez, I'm not accusing you of not caring. I'm accusing you of "high minded amateur psychoanalysis of people who do care about what happened and do have legitimate concerns about what is and has been happening since as if they are mentally ill or somehow defective."

I'm not even criticizing the Christian message of forgiveness. In fact, part of my accusation above (if taken broadly) is that forget is a necessary part of forgive. I don't believe that and I don't believe theology supports that for all situations.

Barry Jive wrote:i got an off-duty stripper's number last night

At the club?

VoxOrion wrote:Beez, I'm not accusing you of not caring. I'm accusing you of "high minded amateur psychoanalysis of people who do care about what happened and do have legitimate concerns about what is and has been happening since as if they are mentally ill or somehow defective."

I know. And now I'm having a crisis where I think I should quit my job because I excessively judge people.

I don't think the guy in question was mentally ill or defective. But he is angry, and I don't know, I'm just not in the same place. I don't know, maybe I just suck as a pastor. I'm supposed to be caring for these people and instead I'm passing judgment. I'm going to go work at Target.

Man, that was overdramatic in hindsight.

The thing that made the biggest impact about 9/11 was a little girl and her grandmother when I was working at Indian Echo Caverns (2003 I think). I was working outside gathering the groups together and sending them down to their guides by the cave. In between tours I'd walk around and make small talk. While I was talking to this older woman sitting on a bench a little girl runs over on the verge of tears and clutches the woman's leg. I'd assumed something happened on the playground and asked as such in case I needed to grab an injury form over a scraped knee. The girl's grandmother looked up at the plane flying overhead on its way to HIA and explained that the girl had lost her dad in the WTC.

That's pretty much when it hit me; a little girl not afraid of flying, but afraid of airplanes flying overhead.

I don't know how you can't look at the pictures of the people who died or read their stories and not have a sense of sadness. So basically, gpicaro, you're a douche.

I say "Never Forget" not out of anger, but simply out of remembrance for what happened and the people that died. We tended to forget Pearl Harbor as years and decades went by, and other national days of remembrance like Veterans Day and Memorial day have been trivialized by car sales and department store coupons.

I really don't like how Memorial Day has become all about eating hot dogs and getting falling down, s&&t -faced drunk. I don't want 9/11 to get trivialized and commercialized like some of these other solemn holidays.

gpicaro wrote:Never got, nor do I ever get, emotional about this. I didn't personally know anyone involved or hurt by this. Frankly, each year I am quite amazed at how many people get so "devastated" about something that had absolutely nothing to do with them. That almost interests me more than the actual event. I have always thought it was terrible for people that had to go through it or had to wonder if their loved ones made it out OK and would never want to go through something like that myself, but that's about it.

Putting aside the coldness of your statement, I think you're seriously underestimating how 9/11 has impacted your life (all of our lives). Virtually every aspect of it for the last 9 years.

When I was in first grade, our teacher told our class that Memorial Day started out to remember all the Veterans who had died, but "now we really just remember everyone who died."

That's the understanding I had, up until just a few years ago.

I'm sticking with profoundly stupid.

And I love when someone runs out the "entitled to my opinion line."

One couple was on their way to LA for their son's wedding. One guy was going to LA to pick up the family dog they had left behind in their recent move. A lot of men and women were running in to those buildings to save people's lives. The passengers on flight 93 saved probably hundreds of more lives by doing what they did. There are thousands of more stories like it.

But you're right. It is whatever. No big deal.