This campaign isn't about the issues POLITICS THREAD

by **TenuredVulture** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 15:49:06

VoxOrion wrote:Sorry for getting your hackles up.

It seemed impolitic to go forward as the leader to get a vote you want and open with a shot on Bush's failed economic policies.

What do you want me to say? I'd think you'd do what you had to to get the deal done and save the speech.

She might have been providing cover for some wavering Dems. I'm assuming there were Reps saying--I'll vote yes after Udall votes yes. So, when Udall voted no, that was actually two votes against.

by **Camp Holdout** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 15:49:23

CalvinBall wrote:Bush has been in charge when some of the most historic disasters have happened in our country's short history. 9/11, The War in Iraq, Katrina, and now this. Not saying any of it his his fault just saying it is a sucky time to be president.

agreed... and epic fail on all four events? yeah. pretty much. sometimes i feel sorry for the guy. but then i just go and eat a slim jim and think about dolphins.

by **Wizlah** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 15:49:37

I think Vox has nailed it - the quick rush through was essential. There's 3 aspects to this problem

a) popular perception that the taxpayer is only bailing out fatcat wallstreet
b) growing professional concern that the plan may not be the right one and may only bail out wall street but not address the underlying problems
c) politicians on both sides not wanting to carry the can on a bad bill

Throw in massively volatile markets, and a presidential race - if they didn't get it through first time, I just don't think it's going to happen in anything like it's current form.

by **jerseyhoya** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 15:53:43

Camp Holdout wrote:
CalvinBall wrote:Bush has been in charge when some of the most historic disasters have happened in our country's short history. 9/11, The War in Iraq, Katrina, and now this. Not saying any of it his his fault just saying it is a sucky time to be president.

agreed... and epic fail on all four events? yeah. pretty much. sometimes i feel sorry for the guy. but then i just go and eat a slim jim and think about dolphins.

Yes. He epically failed by not turning back the hurricane. Or personally shooting down the planes. Or not also being the speaker of the house so he could deliver votes.

by **TenuredVulture** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 15:53:48

Wizlah wrote:I think Vox has nailed it - the quick rush through was essential. There's 3 aspects to this problem

a) popular perception that the taxpayer is only bailing out fatcat wallstreet
b) growing professional concern that the plan may not be the right one and may only bail out wall street but not address the underlying problems
c) politicians on both sides not wanting to carry the can on a bad bill

Throw in massively volatile markets, and a presidential race - if they didn't get it through first time, I just don't think it's going to happen in anything like it's current form.

No, there's no way anything like this goes through now.

It's possible that a more modest insurance type program gets some legs though. That won't be until after the election though I'd imagine.

by **VoxOrion** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 15:54:01

Michael Moore:

P.P.S. From talking to people I know in DC, they say the reason so many Dems are behind this is because Wall Street this weekend put a gun to their heads and said either turn over the $700 billion or the first thing we'll start blowing up are the pension funds and 401(k)s of your middle class constituents. The Dems are scared they may make good on their threat. But this is not the time to back down or act like the typical Democrat we have witnessed for the last eight years. The Dems handed a stolen election over to Bush. The Dems gave Bush the votes he needed to invade a sovereign country. Once they took over Congress in 2007, they refused to pull the plug on the war. And now they have been cowered into being accomplices in the crime of the century. You have to call them now and say "NO!" If we let them do this, just imagine how hard it will be to get anything good done when President Obama is in the White House.

Despite the differences in "why's", it's facinating to me that the ideologues on both sides are against this. Neither Glenn Beck or Michael Moore would pass this bill.

by **TenuredVulture** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 15:55:41

Looks like Dow is going to close on an uptick. Bargain hunters intrigued by the "all stocks, 10% off!" sign in the window of their neighborhood brokerage.

by **Camp Holdout** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 15:56:14

jerseyhoya wrote:
Camp Holdout wrote:
CalvinBall wrote:Bush has been in charge when some of the most historic disasters have happened in our country's short history. 9/11, The War in Iraq, Katrina, and now this. Not saying any of it his his fault just saying it is a sucky time to be president.

agreed... and epic fail on all four events? yeah. pretty much. sometimes i feel sorry for the guy. but then i just go and eat a slim jim and think about dolphins.

Yes. He epically failed by not turning back the hurricane. Or personally shooting down the planes. Or not also being the speaker of the house so he could deliver votes.

we're talking response to these events here jh... to be fair.. this latest one is still up in the air. bush might be dead on for all i know.

by **TenuredVulture** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 15:57:21

Oops, maybe I spoke too soon. Heading south again.

by **Woody** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 16:00:09

Is it true that this is all the Democrats' fault because they forced these companies to have to give loans to poor minorities that didn't otherwise deserve them? This is what some of my racist republican friends are saying, while drunk.

by **jerseyhoya** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 16:00:20

Camp Holdout wrote:
jerseyhoya wrote:
Camp Holdout wrote:
CalvinBall wrote:Bush has been in charge when some of the most historic disasters have happened in our country's short history. 9/11, The War in Iraq, Katrina, and now this. Not saying any of it his his fault just saying it is a sucky time to be president.

agreed... and epic fail on all four events? yeah. pretty much. sometimes i feel sorry for the guy. but then i just go and eat a slim jim and think about dolphins.

Yes. He epically failed by not turning back the hurricane. Or personally shooting down the planes. Or not also being the speaker of the house so he could deliver votes.

we're talking response to these events here jh...

How was his response to 9/11 an epic fail? Also, you're presumably mostly talking about his decision to invade Iraq, not his response, since it was his own action.

You're blaming Bush because that's a fun sport.

by **CalvinBall** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 16:01:32

Woody wrote:Is it true that this is all the Democrats' fault because they forced these companies to have to give loans to poor minorities that didn't otherwise deserve them? This is what some of my racist republican friends are saying, while drunk.

I was told by some republican friend of mine that it is Clinton's fault because he deregulated. Then I asked her "Isn't that what your party wants? Smaller government and such?" She didn't really have an answer.

by **jerseyhoya** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 16:01:54

Maybe if the Dow goes down another could thousand points, people will start thinking the bailout was a good idea.

by **CalvinBall** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 16:03:14

jerseyhoya wrote:Maybe if the Dow goes down another could thousand points, people will start thinking the bailout was a good idea.

by **Woody** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 16:03:14

jerseyhoya wrote:Maybe if the Dow goes down another could thousand points, people will start thinking the bailout was a good idea.

Or they'll all see the tremendous opportunity and buy stocks like there's no tomorrow! Crisis averted!

by **TenuredVulture** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 16:03:18

VoxOrion wrote:Michael Moore:

P.P.S. From talking to people I know in DC, they say the reason so many Dems are behind this is because Wall Street this weekend put a gun to their heads and said either turn over the $700 billion or the first thing we'll start blowing up are the pension funds and 401(k)s of your middle class constituents. The Dems are scared they may make good on their threat. But this is not the time to back down or act like the typical Democrat we have witnessed for the last eight years. The Dems handed a stolen election over to Bush. The Dems gave Bush the votes he needed to invade a sovereign country. Once they took over Congress in 2007, they refused to pull the plug on the war. And now they have been cowered into being accomplices in the crime of the century. You have to call them now and say "NO!" If we let them do this, just imagine how hard it will be to get anything good done when President Obama is in the White House.

Despite the differences in "why's", it's facinating to me that the ideologues on both sides are against this. Neither Glenn Beck or Michael Moore would pass this bill.

I too am fascinated by this. I think it has something do with factions and Federalist 10. Or was that 51? I always get them mixed up.

by **dajafi** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 16:03:53

jerseyhoya wrote:
Camp Holdout wrote:
CalvinBall wrote:Bush has been in charge when some of the most historic disasters have happened in our country's short history. 9/11, The War in Iraq, Katrina, and now this. Not saying any of it his his fault just saying it is a sucky time to be president.

agreed... and epic fail on all four events? yeah. pretty much. sometimes i feel sorry for the guy. but then i just go and eat a slim jim and think about dolphins.

Yes. He epically failed by not turning back the hurricane. Or personally shooting down the planes. Or not also being the speaker of the house so he could deliver votes.

Y'know, I started responding to CalvinBall's original post here, and then decided not to because it was so obviously going to lead to this sort of exchange.

Of the four things, the only one you can even mostly lay at Bush's feet is Iraq. Obviously there's a lot of room for interpretation on the other ones, and personally I'd argue that in no case was the response or ensuing set of policies particularly good. But let's please leave it at that.

by **VoxOrion** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 16:04:26

Woody wrote:Is it true that this is all the Democrats' fault because they forced these companies to have to give loans to poor minorities that didn't otherwise deserve them? This is what some of my racist republican friends are saying, while drunk.

I've read by less drunk and racist authors that this is part of it, but they then go in and say that the banks went ape-shit once they got used to being able to do it and the blame can't really be laid squarely on one or the other chicken and egg eh Woody?

by **TenuredVulture** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 16:06:44

Hmmm. Market closed about 5 minutes ago, and it's still going down. Almost 700 points. Considering 10 minutes ago it was "only" down about 550, it looks like there's a lot of fear out there.

I know you can make money when there's a lot of fear, I just wish I knew how.

by **momadance** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 16:07:01

It didn't help when Greenspan starting encouraging these types of loans that had been nearly impossible to get since the Great Depression.

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This campaign isn't about the issues POLITICS THREAD