Old and busted politics thread

Postby karn » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:05:30

Has it been mentioned there is a Libertarian candidate named George Phillies?

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Postby dajafi » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:25:54

karn wrote:Has it been mentioned there is a Libertarian candidate named George Phillies?


I remember noting this, on BSG or the old site, and promising I'd vote for him. Not today though, and maybe just in my heart.

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Postby meatball » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:42:20

Bakestar wrote:


And SurveyUSA has Clinton up by 10 in CA.

I think Hillary wins by a point or two.


An average of all the major polls shows Obama +1.2

I can see Hillary winning CA because of all the early balloting, much of which was done shortly after her New Hampshire win. Well, at least PA might mean something afterall.

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Postby TenuredVulture » Tue Feb 05, 2008 13:28:44

Early reports from Arkansas indicate a big turnout for Democrats, not so much for Republicans, even in traditional Republican strongholds. On the surface, this would indicate a lack of enthusiasm for the Republican candidates here, despite Huckabee's presence on the ballot (which would offset some of the Hillary enthusiasm.

Digging deeper, it might be worse than that. In many parts of the state, you vote in the Democratic primary because it's where county and local (and even some statewide) elections are usually decided. But this Feb 5th primary is only the Presidential primary--there are no other races. So people aren't voting in the Democratic primary because of an important sheriff election.

This suggests that the Republican Presidential nominee may have a hard time in Arkansas, which does not bode well for them in the general.
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Postby pacino » Tue Feb 05, 2008 13:34:23

OBAMA WINS OBAMA WINS


I'm predicting
thephan wrote:pacino's posting is one of the more important things revealed in weeks.

Calvinball wrote:Pacino was right.

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Postby The Red Tornado » Tue Feb 05, 2008 13:35:30

TenuredVulture wrote:Early reports from Arkansas indicate a big turnout for Democrats, not so much for Republicans, even in traditional Republican strongholds. On the surface, this would indicate a lack of enthusiasm for the Republican candidates here, despite Huckabee's presence on the ballot (which would offset some of the Hillary enthusiasm.

Digging deeper, it might be worse than that. In many parts of the state, you vote in the Democratic primary because it's where county and local (and even some statewide) elections are usually decided. But this Feb 5th primary is only the Presidential primary--there are no other races. So people aren't voting in the Democratic primary because of an important sheriff election.

This suggests that the Republican Presidential nominee may have a hard time in Arkansas, which does not bode well for them in the general.


A bit early aren't we? There's lots of time for the republicans to get fired up- never underestimate them, they awlays come out for the Presidential elections.
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Postby TenuredVulture » Tue Feb 05, 2008 13:54:07

The Red Tornado wrote:
TenuredVulture wrote:Early reports from Arkansas indicate a big turnout for Democrats, not so much for Republicans, even in traditional Republican strongholds. On the surface, this would indicate a lack of enthusiasm for the Republican candidates here, despite Huckabee's presence on the ballot (which would offset some of the Hillary enthusiasm.

Digging deeper, it might be worse than that. In many parts of the state, you vote in the Democratic primary because it's where county and local (and even some statewide) elections are usually decided. But this Feb 5th primary is only the Presidential primary--there are no other races. So people aren't voting in the Democratic primary because of an important sheriff election.

This suggests that the Republican Presidential nominee may have a hard time in Arkansas, which does not bode well for them in the general.


A bit early aren't we? There's lots of time for the republicans to get fired up- never underestimate them, they awlays come out for the Presidential elections.


My prediction didn't have much commitment to it. If I had to guess, I'd pick the Republican nominee to win Arkansas. But it might be closer than I'd expect.

To speculate further, if the Republican loses Arkansas, it means states like Missouri and Georgia are going to be tough too.
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Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Feb 05, 2008 14:17:04

If Georgia is tough, we might as well not even have the election. Bush won Georgia by about as much as Kerry won New York.

If Hillary is the nominee, I can see Arkansas being tricky. Otherwise, I think Arkansas is sort of like West Virginia. States that voted Dem for a long time, and still do locally and congressionally, but at the presidential level are default R +5-10 points.

I'm concerned about the turnout gap in the primaries. It's why I'm pulling for Hillary to win the Democratic nomination, because we need something to be enthusiastic about, and the base loves to hate the Clintons.

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Postby VoxOrion » Tue Feb 05, 2008 14:18:44

The GOP is done for a while. That doesn't mean McCain can't win the presidency.

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Postby TenuredVulture » Tue Feb 05, 2008 14:24:19

jerseyhoya wrote:If Georgia is tough, we might as well not even have the election. Bush won Georgia by about as much as Kerry won New York.

If Hillary is the nominee, I can see Arkansas being tricky. Otherwise, I think Arkansas is sort of like West Virginia. States that voted Dem for a long time, and still do locally and congressionally, but at the presidential level are default R +5-10 points.

I'm concerned about the turnout gap in the primaries. It's why I'm pulling for Hillary to win the Democratic nomination, because we need something to be enthusiastic about, and the base loves to hate the Clintons.


I don't see Arkansas or Georgia as swing states either--they're states that will go Democratic in a Democratic wave (though presumably Democrat control of just about everything in Arkansas at the state and local level except the NW might help the Democrats here a bit (even though Bush won by about 10 points I think)). Clinton won GA in 92 (not sure about 96).

States like Wyoming, Utah, Mississippi, and Texas are pretty much sure bets for the Republicans.
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Postby dajafi » Tue Feb 05, 2008 14:29:22

Obama could put southern states in play. He'll hugely motivate African-American turnout, obviously, and at the least would force the Republicans to invest resources in races there--not just the presidential, either.

Meanwhile, the blogger "publius" puts his finger on a key distinction between Clinton and Obama that I wish more Democrats kept in mind:

[Consider] Clinton’s unwillingness to break from the larger conservative (and even nationalist) narratives that currently define our political debates.
...
Issues like the war or immigration bubble up from the ground and eventually get translated into some broader narrative or schema that helps people digest it. While Lakoff is wrong about a lot (especially remedies), he's right that narratives matter – and can be stubbornly resistant.

The problem though is not so much the existence of narratives, but that narratives are skewed in nationalist ways – “evil Adobes,” if you will. For instance, it bothers me that we as a nation translate willingness to go to war into signs of personal courage and strength. It bothers me that diplomacy is translated into lovey-dove appeasing of teh enemy. It bothers me that legal protections that people spent centuries fighting for are translated into, and casually dismissed as, terrorist sympathy measures. It bothers me that any tax increase – no matter how limited or progressive – is translated into robbing working people.

These narratives are greater obstacles to progress than the individual issues they encompass. Even if people are convinced that, say, Iraq was a blunder, it will have exactly zero benefit if the larger narratives (problem = war) (war = awesome) remain firmly in place. The key is to break the translation – to reject the premises. Otherwise, tactical victories are ultimately worthless.

The problem with Clinton then is that she seems hopelessly frozen in these narratives – a byproduct of 1994 and coming of political age in Arkansas. Regardless of her disagreement with Republicans on individual issues, she cedes ultimate political victory to them because she accepts the terms of the debate they establish. Her stances on Iraq and Iran are objectionable to be sure, but what really concerns me is that they reveal a worldview that will result in more future bad decisions. Similarly, while her immigrant-bashing might help her tactically, it’s a long-term loser because it solidifies the view that (1) legal process is something one must earn; and (2) immigrants are bad. On the taxes front, her bashing of Obama’s payroll tax suggestion falls into this same category.


This is what I've wanted for a long time, and something I think is crucial if we're ever to get past our zero-sum Stoopid Politics and move toward actual problem-solving. There are default assumptions--echoed endlessly by the supposedly liberal media--that support the status quo: War is Good (and willingness to send others into combat equals Toughness), Due Process is for Appeasers and the Rule of Law for Wimps, Government is Bad and Taxes are Theft.

But you need a competently run and adequately funded government to address problems. You need infrastructure and good schools for long-term economic development; you need due process to ensure respect for and equal application of the law. You need the law to run the society.

It's certainly possible, even probable, that "liberals" went overboard in some of these categories in the '60s and '70s. But the counter-argument has hardened into orthodoxy and the Clintons, those great political survivors, are too old, scarred and scared to challenge that orthodoxy. Obama might be able to have that Big Conversation with the public--which is what transformational presidents (Lincoln, FDR) tend to do. He could change minds.

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Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Feb 05, 2008 15:03:24

VoxOrion wrote:The GOP is done for a while. That doesn't mean McCain can't win the presidency.

Done on the congressional level? Or is this a McCain isn't a Republican post?

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Postby Disco Stu » Tue Feb 05, 2008 15:06:24

Straight talk express on MSNBC!

Talking about choices:

Whether the government issues your healthcare or the families do (you know, for the families that can afford it).

Or to surrender in Iraq or fight for democracy. You know, cause if we surrender all of America will become POWs just like him.
Check The Good Phight, you might learn something.

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Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Feb 05, 2008 15:51:40

Huckabee won the WV caucuses this afternoon.

Romney was ahead on the first ballot, but McCain voters switched to Huck to prevent Mitt from picking up the 19 delegates.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/05/super.gop/index.html

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Postby Monkeyboy » Tue Feb 05, 2008 16:22:34

Huckabee is playing the kingmaker. Without him, I think Romney would be winning, or at least it would still be wide open.
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Postby dajafi » Tue Feb 05, 2008 16:31:28

Huck and The Mittster really seem to loathe each other. Of course, they all hate Romney...

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Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Feb 05, 2008 16:33:27

Monkeyboy wrote:Huckabee is playing the kingmaker. Without him, I think Romney would be winning, or at least it would still be wide open.

All the other GOP candidates hate Romney. Even though Huckabee is probably closer to Romney on the issues, especially social issues, he sure seems to be happy to avoid doing Mitt any favors.

Plus, he probably still thinks he has a shot at winning the nomination, or at least racking up enough delegates where he can be relevant at the convention if the GOP fight drags out.

And it's not often the kingmaker gets to wear the crown, as Huckabee got to do today in WV.

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Postby Laexile » Tue Feb 05, 2008 16:41:58

Monkeyboy wrote:Huckabee is playing the kingmaker. Without him, I think Romney would be winning, or at least it would still be wide open.

Perhaps after today. McCain has won New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Florida. Even if Romney got 70% of Huckabee's votes in New Hampshire McCain still would have won. In South Carolina Romney finished fourth. Huckabee's votes probably wouldn't have gone to Romney. In Florida Huckabee's votes would have helped Romney, but Rudy got even more votes and a lot of them might have gone McCain.

Today Huckabee might cost Romney votes in Missouri, Oklahoma, Alabama, Georgia, and Tennessee. While it's possible that Romney would have gotten enough Huckabee votes those aren't states with a lot of delegates. Huckabee may have an impact in California in some congressional districts, but it might not be enough to affect that many delegates.
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Postby jerseyhoya » Tue Feb 05, 2008 19:10:39

NRO Exit Poll Data

Random smattering of early leaked exit poll info for GOP races.

That Missouri number scares the crap out of me and should have Vox (if he's still a Romney guy) doing cartwheels.

The exit polls have been very good so far this cycle, but these aren't the final exit poll numbers, so they're to be taken with an even bigger grain of salt than normal.

Oh, and if McCain only wins Jersey by 13, I'll be pretty surprised.

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Postby VoxOrion » Tue Feb 05, 2008 19:25:25

Monkeyboy wrote:Huckabee is playing the kingmaker. Without him, I think Romney would be winning, or at least it would still be wide open.


LAExile wrote:Today Huckabee might cost Romney votes in Missouri, Oklahoma, Alabama, Georgia, and Tennessee. While it's possible that Romney would have gotten enough Huckabee votes those aren't states with a lot of delegates. Huckabee may have an impact in California in some congressional districts, but it might not be enough to affect that many delegates.


I know I've said this myself, but the idea that Huckabee is taking votes from Romney appears to be incorrect

I think Huckabee can be looked at two ways - one as the Fundamentalist Christian's Favorite Boy, the other as a left-wing Republican.

When I consider him as the latter, the fact that his supporters are more likely to lean toward McCain makes sense.

It's funny to think Mitt Romney, former Mass governor, is the most conservative candidate in this race.

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